Fiberglass windows & soundproofing - help!

[windows4tx]

We are at our wits end with the neighbor's barking dogs and our windows are '90s builder-grade aluminum so we are hoping that replacement will solve the noise problem + of course give us better energy efficiency and savings in the crazy hot summers of TX!

I have an architect in the family who says we should get fiberglass windows or thermal break aluminum. I'm on board with avoiding vinyl. Wood clad isn't a good choice for us b/c we have nice white solid wood interior shutters so the windows don't get seen all that much from inside, therefore not worth the cost.

We need white inside and out.

Alright, so it seems everyone who is a window expert (including architect bro) favors Marvin Infinity and at first I was sold on this product. However, we aren't impressed with the one and only Infinity retailer/installer in our area. He told me a bunch of wrong information (called Marvin myself to verify this). Marvin will not sell this product direct to consumer or to any other contractor.

Besides that today I found out that the Infinity windows STC rating isn't all that impressive: 26 with their sound reduction window package; 22 with standard package for a double hung (out of 23 windows 20 would be this style).

Milgard Ultra on the other hand appears to have substantially higher ratings on all their window styles, all in the 30s and some even in upper 30s depending on glass package.

Also, there are about half a dozen Milgard installers in town, and I think that any contractor could directly buy this window, right? Doesn't have to be "authorized" like Marvin requires?

I have seen both the Milgard Ultra and Marvin Infinity in person. I like the thinner frame and overall cleaner look of the Infinity window design, but the white interior finish on the Milgard seem more like white-painted wood. The Milgard Ultra was a thick window with a thick frame, but maybe that contributes to its higher STC rating?

Of course I got this whole sales pitch about how the pultrusion method of the Infinity is so superior to any other method of making fiberglass windows. Is this a load of crap or true?

Another option might be to look at Marvin Integrity and find our own installer. I think Marvin does sell those direct, right? We found one guy already who seems great and will install any brand. He said he uses new construction windows all the time for window replacement and actually prefers it b/c it's easier to get a good seal on everything. Does that sound right?

But then if we are already doubting the Infinity for soundproofing, the Integrity probably isn't any better or maybe worse.

Even though I'm being told and believing that Marvin is better than Milgard (advice from architect bro and also reading forums like this one) I'm wondering if Milgard might be a bette fit for our situation? But I'm worried about the bad I've read regarding Milgard quality control and warranty support.

Is there another brand to consider? We really can't go any more expensive than the Marvin Infinity.

Since soundproofing is a top priority for us, I'm worried about choosing the window that performs best in that regard.

The fiberglass options seem so limited. Should we really look at the newer thermal break aluminum products, as architect bro suggests?

Any input on all this?

I'm driving myself crazy!
Thank you!

[Delaware Mike]

Laminated glass?

[HomeSealed]

Infinity is nothing more than a prettier version of integrity. There are excellent choices in tx in all 3 materials, and on that, I'd have to defer to randy. He is one of the most tenured posters on this site, and contacting he or Anthony ( Dfw area) would be highly advisable.

[windows4tx]

Actually, we would go with a window that has two thicknesses of glass instead - this is a sound reduction package that most premium window manufacturers offer (Milgard and Marvin both do). Everything I read about sound proofing says this is as good as laminated glass (or sometimes better) and less expensive. The different glass thicknesses block different frequencies of sound.

The other thing that matters is air space between the panes, but that's pretty standard across all of these options. Some like Milgard quiet line have more airspace, but I've read and been told that this is a huge, heavy, hideous product (plus it's vinyl which we'd rather not have).

So, as far as the glass goes, we know what we need for sound reduction. However, the way the window is constructed and the installation can affect sound reduction just as much as getting the right glass package. So that is more what I'm asking about.

Sorry for being unclear about that in the OP.

Thanks!

[windows4tx]

Really? I have read a bunch of negative things about the Integrity, so I figured there were some differences, though I know they can both be made out of Ultrex on both sides.

One plus with the Integrity is they have a single hung option, which would be absolutely desirable and bring the price down for the 10 windows on the first floor of the home - plus single hung tends to get better STC and energy ratings compared to double since fewer gaps, right?

I'm still disappointed in the STC rating info I got for Infinity, though, and figuring it's not going to be any higher for Integrity.

Or is the Milgard Ultra STC rating info misleading somehow?

I was also told that a Simonton double hung vinyl window with laminated glass has an STC rating of about 32. Just seems like the Infinity is really low at 22-26.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. I never wanted to know even this much about windows, and you know how it goes...the more you know, the more you know you don't know!

Infinity is nothing more than a prettier version of integrity. There are excellent choices in tx in all 3 materials, and on that, I'd have to defer to randy. He is one of the most tenured posters on this site, and contacting he or Anthony ( Dfw area) would be highly advisable.

[Delaware Mike]

Different glass thickness = offset glazing. Good option. Since most of my clients are looking for insert pocket retrofit type of installations I see a lot of vinyl. It's pretty hard to get these vinyl manufacturers to do offset glazing unless they have a dedicated package.

I will say that I love dogs, however I think that some sort of air raid submarine siren purchased off of eBay and pointed at your neighbor's bedroom windows might be in order.

[windows4tx]

Oh, I am totally a dog lover. We have 2 and used to have 3. But is right! We've had plenty of ideas. These are the kind of people who give us multi-dog owners a reputation as bad neighbors.

Thank you for giving me a term to use instead of that long explanation! I think I saw that somewhere, but forgot it. Offset glazing is a much shorter way to say it. Ha!

Different glass thickness = offset glazing. Good option. Since most of my clients are looking for insert pocket retrofit type of installations I see a lot of vinyl. It's pretty hard to get these vinyl manufacturers to do offset glazing unless they have a dedicated package.

I will say that I love dogs, however I think that some sort of air raid submarine siren purchased off of eBay and pointed at your neighbor's bedroom windows might be in order.

[Windows on Washington]

Milgard, if they are available to you, have a dedicated STC window that is probably your best choice if Sound is the primary motivator. Milgard seems to have a bit more sound control division so it is not surprising that they might have a bit more focus and substantial data in that division.

Theoretically, a window that leaks less air will leak less sound but I do not know if that is represented effectively in the STC numerical values.

Marvin is a solid company and the Infinity is much better looking than the all Ultrex Integrity.

You can probably get the sound benefit you will want out of a bunch of the different manufacturers and it comes down to what look do you want.

[Randy]

Sorry to be late to the party.

I agree with WoW, Milgard is zeroed in on noise reduction and they are your best bet in fiberglass, but I wouldn't choose their vinyl window. You're observation about the thick frames on the Ultra are accurate.

While thermally-broken aluminum is one of my favorite products, I haven't seen any STC rating information from the Don Young company. I doubt they've had the windows tested for STC, but I'll check today and let you know. Getting an offset glass package in their 8200 series single hung, with it's low AI rating, would be a good choice I think.

So, as far as the glass goes, we know what we need for sound reduction. However, the way the window is constructed and the installation can affect sound reduction just as much as getting the right glass package. So that is more what I'm asking about.

Your concern for the installation is correct. Purchasing good windows just to have the installer do a minimal caulk-and-walk style installation will leave you disappointed in the noise reduction.

[HomeSealed]

Theoretically, a window that leaks less air will leak less sound but I do not know if that is represented effectively in the STC numerical values.

.

I'm also not sure it the STC rating takes that into consideration, but I will reinforce the statement that the air leakage plays a major factor. Whether it is through a leaky unit or around one that is poorly installed, it makes a big difference to get everything sealed tightly.

[windows4tx]

WoW - Are you talking about the vinyl Milgard Quiet Line or do they have a fiberglass designed especially for noise reduction? The one company we met with so far that does Milgard is quoting us on a package with offset glazing in every window, but that's the only modification being made for sound.

I'm unsure how much stock to put into STC ratings. I don't know how to tell who is rating the glass vs frame vs both together. Is there a standard way of doing this? Is there any third party involved to verify these test results are objective?

That being said, Milgard would be going out on quite a limb to claim STC ratings that are 10 points higher for their Ultra than the equal/better quality Infinity by Marvin. Surely they would be getting some scrutiny and somebody would call them out on it if these numbers are bogus?

I've been focused so much on sound that honestly I haven't even figured out what other #s to look for on all the other ratings (u-factor, etc) and still need to educate myself better on that. How do Milgard Ultra and Infinity compare as far as those ratings go? How do both compare to thermally broken aluminum?

Randy, I'm glad you chimed in since you know this market. I would so appreciate it if you dont mind checking on the aluminum STC info. Is there another brand of aluminum besides Don Young that we should look at? I'm really hesitant about aluminum altogether and only am considering it because architect bro thinks it's a good option. But it seems like fiberglass might be better for this climate due to expansion/contraction that can happen with aluminum, no? Do you install widows in ATX? Does your company have a name?

Thank you!

[windows4tx]

Oh also every company we talked to so far had mentioned using spray foam to seal up any remaining airspace around the windows. Is this a good practice? I also gather there is a backer rod product that could be used, but none of the installers seem to be using this.

And is there anything better/worse about installing a new construction window vs. replacement window inserts. There is a GC we know and would trust to do a full kitchen reno. He does do windows, but when there is siding (only 5 of our 23 windows are in brick) he pulls out everything around the opening and does new construction style windows with flanges b/c he thinks it's better and easier to get a good seal all around. And he says he hardly ever used foam. How does that sound to you guys?

[Windows on Washington]

WoW - Are you talking about the vinyl Milgard Quiet Line or do they have a fiberglass designed especially for noise reduction? The one company we met with so far that does Milgard is quoting us on a package with offset glazing in every window, but that's the only modification being made for sound.

Yes...the Quiet Line window is what I was referring to when it comes to their dedicated STC window. Their offset glazing does a good job but if you want ultimate noise control, the Quiet Lines are awesome.

I'm unsure how much stock to put into STC ratings. I don't know how to tell who is rating the glass vs frame vs both together. Is there a standard way of doing this? Is there any third party involved to verify these test results are objective?

That being said, Milgard would be going out on quite a limb to claim STC ratings that are 10 points higher for their Ultra than the equal/better quality Infinity by Marvin. Surely they would be getting some scrutiny and somebody would call them out on it if these numbers are bogus?

Ratings are not done in house in most cases and there is no chicanery from a company like Milgard.

I've been focused so much on sound that honestly I haven't even figured out what other #s to look for on all the other ratings (u-factor, etc) and still need to educate myself better on that. How do Milgard Ultra and Infinity compare as far as those ratings go? How do both compare to thermally broken aluminum?

Randy is the guy you need to talk to for certain.

Oh also every company we talked to so far had mentioned using spray foam to seal up any remaining airspace around the windows. Is this a good practice? I also gather there is a backer rod product that could be used, but none of the installers seem to be using this.

And is there anything better/worse about installing a new construction window vs. replacement window inserts. There is a GC we know and would trust to do a full kitchen reno. He does do windows, but when there is siding (only 5 of our 23 windows are in brick) he pulls out everything around the opening and does new construction style windows with flanges b/c he thinks it's better and easier to get a good seal all around. And he says he hardly ever used foam. How does that sound to you guys?

There is almost always room for spray foam and it, or a combination of backer rod and sealant, is the best way to go. Spray foam is easier to get done and filled up completely than in backer rod and sealant.

New construction is a great option when you can go flanged and you are already pulling siding. It is more invasive and will cost you more to do right.

A well done insert is just as unlikely to leak though.

[Randy]

Is there another brand of aluminum besides Don Young that we should look at?

You could consider NT's tba window, but it's not as well constructed as Don Young's, IMO.

I'm really hesitant about aluminum altogether and only am considering it because architect bro thinks it's a good option.

Smart brother. Thermally broken aluminum is a great choice for the deep south. Vinyl windows can do fine here, but if you expect them to hold up for the long term, you have to be selective. There are many vinyl windows being sold in Texas that aren't worthy of a flip house, much less a long term residence. It's shameful.

But it seems like fiberglass might be better for this climate due to expansion/contraction that can happen with aluminum, no?

Fiberglass deserves consideration, if your budget allows. Very attractive and versatile, but not without it's own drawbacks.

Do you install widows in ATX?

Yes we do.

Does your company have a name?

Yes it does. However, out of respect and appreciation for this website and the benefits to both homeowners and professionals, I must abide by the rules of the site owner. If you would like to get ahold of me, you can click on the contact button and it will get you to me. Otherwise, I'm happy to just offer you whatever assistance I can through this site.

Oh also every company we talked to so far had mentioned using spray foam to seal up any remaining airspace around the windows. Is this a good practice?

It's the best practice, and it should give you a higher level of confidence in the contractors your speaking to. It will make a big difference in the noise blocking as well.

And is there anything better/worse about installing a new construction window vs. replacement window inserts. There is a GC we know and would trust to do a full kitchen reno. He does do windows, but when there is siding (only 5 of our 23 windows are in brick) he pulls out everything around the opening and does new construction style windows with flanges b/c he thinks it's better and easier to get a good seal all around. And he says he hardly ever used foam. How does that sound to you guys?

Using a nailing flange, new construction style installation is great. In fact, it's the ultimate way to go, when feasible. I would still foam around the perimeter of the window, if accessible from the interior, just to help ensure it's as airtight as possible.

[Delaware Mike]

Randy would be the guy to see in Texas. I'm headed out there tomorrow to do all of my brother's windows and doors in the Dallas area. I'm about done with the cold of the North East so maybe it's more of a recon mission.