Can you tell me if my installers are cutting corners?

[LobsterandWindows]

We're getting all new windows. We paid for full frame tear out replacement. But here's the thing: There are some parts remaining from our old window! Basically, they left some exterior part of the window and then cut it flush with the rough opening with a sawzall, then popped in the windows. Here are a couple pictures showing what I mean:

http://imgur.com/a/Wg8ak
http://imgur.com/1FHajLm
http://imgur.com/asRtLhj


Those dark grey/brown metal areas are pieces from our old windows. Everything that is white is the new stuff. If you look closely, you can see that they just took the sawzall and cut off the middle beam (mullion? Is that called a mullion?) so that it would sit flush enough for them to shove in the new window. Now we have a huge ledge on the outside, and very little ont he inside. We used to have maybe 4" sills inside and now we've got maybe 1.5" now, and both windows are comparably thick.

They are the Alside Mezzo windows, which are apparently one of their newer lines so maybt they're working out problems with them. But 4 out of 7 of the stops on these slider windows don't work. I think this is a manufacturer problem because the stops don't "pop out" like they're supposed to. They pop out, but they hit another part of the window so they can't fully extend. This is a big deal to us because we don't want our kids falling out of some of our lower windows on the second floor. They want to just shave off the piece of the window that is preventing the stop from popping out, but we don't want to get brand new windows with some jerry-rigged fix.

Other problems:
1. When the windows are closed and locked, both panes will slide back and forth a considerable amount. Almost a centemeter. I'm worried that this means that the wondows won't be sealed, since the fuzzy sealant parts on the edges are thinner than the "wiggle space" is.
2. Some of our windows have full screens, some have half screens - what is up with that! From the outside it looks strange that not all screens match.
3. We were told that we would gain glass by doing the "full frame" tear out and replacement, but we measured our old windows and compared to the new windows and we lost glass area. In our dark house, thats a HUGE deal to us.

All around, I just feel like they're trying to take us. Can you all help inform me so that I know what to argue for and how to protect myself?

[Window4U (IL)]

Any chance you could post a bunch more pictures for us? Take some from the outside too so we can see their plan for flashing the windows. I don't like what I'm seeing at all, but would like to see more before commenting further.

[LobsterandWindows]

Here are a couple more pictures. We're in the middle of a thunderstorm now, but these are what I have so far.

http://i.imgur.com/C4RtLJi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1FHajLm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WkGRp9x.jpg

We confronted them this morning about our concerns. They admit that it is weird that all of our screens don't match, and they will replace them. They admit there is a manufacturer's defect in the child/burglar locks and so they have contacted the manufacturer. They say they can just pop the new sashes into the existing jambs whenever the factory sends out new ones.

Their reasoning for leaving that old brown aluminum from our previously existing aluminum clad windows was that if they pull back the siding it will look bad when they put it back and create another possible place for water to come in. They said they are just using that old part as the "stop" for the new windows instead of putting in a piece of pine. They told us that this way (leaving the old aluminum part) is better than putting in new pine stops. How do I know if they're telling the truth or if they just want to justify the lazy work they've done?

[masterext]

Did the company specifically state in the contract that they would be installing new interior and exterior moulding?
New construction doesnt mean new moulding,it just means the install is a new construction application.
A new construction application means removing the existing nail flange. Looks like they may have only cut it.

[LobsterandWindows]

The contract doesn't say anything about new construction vs insert or anything like that. On our contract, there is a box checked which says it will be full frame replacement. Here is our exact contract wording:

"Full Frame Replacement:

1. Remove all existing window components including interior casing to meet the rough opening.
2. Install windows at prepared rough opening, insulate, caulk, and secure per manufacturer's specification.
3. Replace interior casing (Staining/Painting additional unless pre-finished)
4. Finish exterior as per acceptable conditions."

[Guy]

I wouldn't accept that no matter what they said. That is totally unacceptable in my eyes anywhere. They've taken a clad window and cut the mull bars out of the cladding. Leaving those holes where the mulls were is a total hack job. The only way to replace these type of windows is by pulling the existing siding and J-Bead around each window. Then pull the entire existing window out. Nail fin included! Then you wrap the opening according to code and then install a new window, including nail fin. New interior jamb box and trim stained to match. Then install a new drip cap, flash, then reinstall the siding components accordingly! I won't do it any other way here in MN. That type of install is going to cause nothing but problems. The only remedy would be to pull the siding away and custom bend a matching capping to cover all the bronze product from the old window. Bend it to come into the new vinyl and then all the way to the wall like a nail fin. Seal it up and then reapply the siding. I would be twisted in a not if I ever saw that here in MN. Most of our local inspectors would never pass that!!!

[LobsterandWindows]

Well, I mean, they're not done yet. They're planning to do an aluminum wrap over all of that stuff. I just wanted to make sure the progress they've made so far is acceptable before I have them continue further. They said it would be better not to disturb our siding and create another part that could potentially be infiltrated. I want to trust them, but I also feel like one of the bigger remodel contractors in the twin cities has to have made their money somehow, and the easiest way is to cut corners....

We called the city inspector and he said there is no "code" for windows and made it seem like he couldn't help us. Should we call back and be more persistent that he come out and look? I don't know how to protect ourselves from this!

Whereabouts in MN are you? I wish you were our neighbor and you could tell us how to fix this big mess! We're in the SW burbs.

[Window4U (IL)]

Hi Guy, It sounds like he's in Minneapolis just like you. I'll bet you could give him some good local advice on his install.

[Delaware Mike]

Guy and I have the same approach to this type of install. If I can't do something that I feel is the 100% correct way, I don't really care about losing that project to someone who is going to take the easy way. Siding is not all that difficult, even for speed oriented window/door subs. I could drop that siding and flash that opening in a reasonable amount of time along with new j-channel to make for a fantastic OEM type of project. Being able to explain the details of less common window installations to homeowners is something that many window sales reps have missing from their "bag of tricks" more often than not. I also take enough time as need to word this into my proposals.

At this point I hope at least they foam up the voids and are really good at capping and caulking to make presentable.

[LobsterandWindows]

I can't believe I am up at 2:00 in the morning worrying about this crap while I'm 5 months pregnant. Stupid!

Anyway. Tomorrow I'm going to ask them to AT LEAST push the windows out closer to the exterior. In our smaller windows, it feels like we're looking out of a tunnel. When I look outside, I want to see the view, not somebody's (however nice it may be) aluminum wrap job.

Since the contract states that all parts from the old window would be removed, I feel like I am within my rights to at least request that they bump the windows out closer to the face of the house. I also feel like if I really want them to, I should be able to make them pull out that old clad nailing fin and everything else even if it means pulling back my siding. I don't want to make more work for anyone, but I DO want my installation done the right way.

I think they just don't want to pay for putting in more j-channel or the time it will take to do that. But it just doesn't look nice having the windows "sunken" so far into the face of our house, and I don't want to pay for a window installation that I think looks worse than our previous windows.

[Windows on Washington]

First off, take a deep breath. Everything is fixable and goodness knows that you need your rest and peaceful state of mind.

Are they doing a full tear out...depending on your interpretation, yes.

Is it what I would consider the best approach, not entirely.

Should they be able to make it waterproof and tight, yes.

To Guy's point earlier, they have cut out the frame spars on a twin unit and left the original frame/cladding intact. Ideally what would be done here would be a new construction application with the removal of the siding, complete flange removal, installation of new nailing flange equip units, flashing, drip caps, jamb extensions, casing, etc.

They are doing more of what is considered more of an "express" full tear out and are ripping down to the rough opening but leave some of the extension frame and cladding intact. Again, not ideal but most guys don't like to mess with the siding.

I would have a quick discussion with them and see what they have listed in their contract.

Where is the home again?

[LobsterandWindows]

I'm going to talk to them about it this morning when they come out. I'm in the Southwest suburbs of Minneapolis.

On a couple of windows, water was getting in and starting to damage the wood. That is why we wanted to do the full frame replacement instead of just inserts. We wanted to make that sure we caught any and all problems early so we wouldn't have to deal with water damage. If we're doing this, I want it to be done right.

If I let them leave the old cladding on there, does that make it more likely we'll have water problems in those windows again? I mean, we don't know where or how that water was getting in - could it be through the parts of the previous windows that were under the siding? I don't know. The interior sills didn't show any signs of rot or damage, it was only underneath the sill that we found a bit of mold and wetness on the wooden framing.

[LobsterandWindows]

I talked to the boss sub-con. I pointed out that I've been on multiple forums and that I had another contractor coming out to look and they agreed that I'm not getting what I paid for. The boss sub-con looked a nervous but was eager to do what I asked and even said we "didn't need to mention it" to his boss, which makes me feel like I probably SHOULD mention it to his boss. I feel like if I were the owner of a company, I would wnat to know that my sub contractors were trying to cut corners.

Do you agree that I should let them know?

[HomeSealed]

"Full Frame Replacement:

1. Remove all existing window components including interior casing to meet the rough opening.
2. Install windows at prepared rough opening, insulate, caulk, and secure per manufacturer's specification.
3. Replace interior casing (Staining/Painting additional unless pre-finished)
4. Finish exterior as per acceptable conditions."

I'm not going to be quite as critical on what they are doing because there is some grey area here, but that is IF it (meaning this install style) is what you were supposed to get. Should that installation be relatively problem free? If the aluminum work is done properly, sure. That said, it's kind of a half tearout IMO. I can't say that I've seen anyone do it that way before, apparently they separated the interior wood part of the original from the aluminum exterior, and kept that in as exterior stops. Fact is, your contract says "remove all existing window components", which hasn't been done, clearly. If this process as they did it was described to you ahead of time, then it is what it is. If not, my personal opinion is that you should have all of the components removed, including the clad/extruded material of the old window, AND the nailing fin. This install as is relies solely on the existing water management system, which again, is not consistent with what I would call a "full tearout". Mike and Guy like to drop the siding panels, I prefer to cut them back and add trim, either way a true full tear-out would have all of the old window removed, and a new one installed with fin (in most cases). This isn't even an express install, as that would have cut out that exterior alumimun cladding out, leaving only the fin behind the siding.
My recommendation would be to speak to an installation manager at this company to make sure that you are on the right page. Not to get the installer(s) in trouble, but you want to make sure that you are getting what you paid for, whether that is or is not the case here. Ultimately, we other pros can only speculate based on the info given, you need to figure out with your contractor if this is what you paid for... and if you don't mind my asking, what did you pay as a premium for this over a regular replacement? That would be an indicator as well.

On the product, your experience is consistent with the recommendations you will find from many pros. Alside made some progress in the performance ratings on that product, but it ultimately shows the same level of quality and engineering, in that you have multiple services issues already. Using a low-cost product CAN be a red flag in terms of corner cutting installations as well, which may be the case here. Hopefully you are able to get this resolved to your satisfaction.

[TheWindowNerd]

I would not consider a "frame jump" a full tear out. They did however go back to the RO with the new window, not sure if the units could have been bigger.
You did lose ~ 2" of jamb pocket and stool.