Questions about vinyl replacement install

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Don K.
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Questions about vinyl replacement install

#1 Post by Don K. » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:17 am

I’m looking at replacement (pocket) vinyl widows into frames of older M&W wood/vinyl clad casements after sash and hardware removal. Have gotten few quotes and explanations of install process, some of the explanations makes me wonder if I’m over cautious or just don’t understand.

One installer said they would use nails and caulk to attach aluminum wrap to accessory groove of new vinyl pocket window. NAILS into vinyl window, made my mind go into brain cell collision mode. :shock: Is this an acceptable practice?

I understand screws thru side frame of pocket unit into existing wood frame is normal. But several have commented that shims would not be needed. That appears to me to just be stretching side frame of pocket just tight enough to stop movement at that time and as that tension diminishes over time the window will have tendency to loosen and possibly move some. Am I just over thinking here?

Another question that was not clearly explained. When installing pocket window sash must be open to install screws thru frame. How do you measure window corners for square frame, since sash is in the way of diagonal corner to corner measurement?

masterext
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#2 Post by masterext » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:28 pm

You are over analyzing this. Its totally normal and very common to nail aluminum trim, how else would it be fastened if you think about it. I can guarantee you misunderstood the contractor, they would not be nailing into the actual vinyl window.
When they said they nail vinyl, they may be using pvc coated aluminum.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#3 Post by Windows on Washington » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:03 pm

Trim isn't nailed into the window, but into the wood trim that it is covering.

If the window is well built, shims are largely unnecessary if the jamb jacks are adjusted and the window foamed into place.

The new insert is 100% square. The window must only be leveled to be square in the opening.

Don K.
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#4 Post by Don K. » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:34 pm

masterext wrote:... I can guarantee you misunderstood the contractor, they would not be nailing into the actual vinyl window. .....
Thanks for replies. I wish I had misunderstood the contractor, but we were standing outside of existing windows and when I ask about wrap attachment to vinyl insert window accessory groove is when contractor said nail and caulk, at which time I replied and placed my finger on existing wood/clad frame and said you mean nail to this. Contractor said no, there will be no nails there, wrap will go between that and siding J-channel with only nails and caulk in vinyl insert frame. At that point I ask “you’re going to drive nails into a full vinyl window frame”? Answer was “yes I do it all the time”. This was the install contractor that I had requested to come with salesperson on second trip to house.
Windows on Washington wrote:....If the window is well built, shims are largely unnecessary if the jamb jacks are adjusted and the window foamed into place....
As far as jam jack screws, the casement example window was an Siminton 6500 which had no jack screws in frame (I know what they look like) and only two holes for side mount screws which I already knew that the other side was secured with longer screws through two of locking rail brackets. Contractor also said foam or caulk would be used to seal outside between frames, when asked if closed or open cell foam, I received a blank look and was told low expanding foam.

Delaware Mike
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#5 Post by Delaware Mike » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:55 pm

It sounds like this contractor could benefit from some step by step pictures of some of these techniques captured in a tablet to show what is getting lost in translation. I carry thousands of installation before and after pictures to show folks what goes into making a project complete as once in a while words just don't do the trick. I also carry sample bends of various types of capping materials along with the obvious window samples and corner cuts that have these accessory grooves. A quick mock up or demo with the capping and window sure helps set the homeowners mind at ease.

We accessory groove cap all of the time and it's pretty common. I can't ever recall nailing into the actual window though. Capping returns into the accessory groove off the face of of the existing wood trim boards or frame, often get fastened via stainless trim nails to hold the capping at correct tension and placement until the exterior sealant sets up for the miter joints to hold nice.

I'd simply ask to see some pictures of his capping to set your mind at ease.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#6 Post by HomeSealed » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:19 am

Good advice above. Sounds like either things are being miscommunicated, or this installer is not very knowledgeable. Nails into the new vinyl frame would not be common practice. Frankly I'm not even sure how they would do that if they were coming out of the utility groove with the trim.
Regarding the installation, if your installer were to measure corner to corner for squareness, he'd likely be the first ever. Frankly, its pretty rare for an installer even to use a level. The paramount concern for proper install is that the window is installed SQUARE. This can be accomplished quite easily by checking the reveals on upper and lower sash to frame interface as the installation is being dialed in, as well as consistent spacing and weatherstripping contact from sash side to jamb. As WoW stated, between screws, jamb jacks, and the foam as it hardens (along with trim and caulk etc), shims are not always necessary in a pocket replacement install.
IMO, there is a little bit of being over cautious here, although a thorough and proper explanation from a qualified installer should be able to put your mind at ease.

Don K.
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#7 Post by Don K. » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:56 pm

Delaware Mike wrote:It sounds like this contractor could benefit from some step by step pictures of some of these techniques captured in a tablet to show what is getting lost in translation.......I'd simply ask to see some pictures of his capping to set your mind at ease.
Delaware Mike, you have some excellent advise which would help me if installers used your techniques. But I have yet to find one that can explain things that makes me feel like I will be happy with install, maybe because my back ground has been mechanical and fairly diverse. So far one installer told me the cap wrap was all that was needed for water and air barrier to inside of house, when I questioned how overlapping cap aluminum was going to stop air, simply said I guarantee it will (not good enough for me) which prompted reply “I’m the expert”. Then there was the one that is going to nail into vinyl frame, which even you guys agree is bad idea (one that blew my mind). Then the salesmen that explained how things would be done that was totally illogical at times but I didn’t expect much more with some being basically scrip readers. Which is what prompted me to ask to discuss install with installers themselves, to basically keep from having a misunderstanding at point of install process. If I had received the kind of explanations you guys have given, everything would have been good. Just have to keep trying I guess, I’m sure there’s a good installer in my area (Williamsburg, VA) that installs a window I’m comfortable with.
HomeSealed wrote:Good advice above. Sounds like either things are being miscommunicated, or this installer is not very knowledgeable.......IMO, there is a little bit of being over cautious here, although a thorough and proper explanation from a qualified installer should be able to put your mind at ease.
HomeSealed, I too wondered if I was misunderstanding which is way I questioned certain practices to better understand that tended to insult installers, not my intent may be my mannerism not sure. Or maybe a lowly homeowner asking questions that should be accept without question (idk). What you, WoW and others have said here is clear and logical, I have talked to one installer briefly that might share you guys type of talent that I plan to contact next. My installation (I think) might require some deviation from norm which I’m not sure I can communicate, but if I can think of way I’ll try.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#8 Post by HomeSealed » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:47 pm

Sounds good Don, some pictures would definitely help to assess if you have a chance.

Don K.
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#9 Post by Don K. » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:38 pm

Image

Alright guys, this is detail of my installation and it will be same around complete perimeter of installation.

Predrilled screw holes through hinge side of Simonton insert is 1 ¼” from outer face, which will cause it to enter existing frame right at step at point “b” (might need tweaking there). Screws on lock side will enter slightly closer to interior (no problem). Obviously aluminum wrap will go from accessory groove (near point “c”) around outside of existing frame between it and J-channel.

My questions are as follows:
1) Other than outside wrap, what would be proper steps to seal the pocket unit? (What else would you do?)
2) Is caulk at point “a” along with wrap adequate? (Suggested by one installer)
3) Does using a replacement insert with nail fin and cutting it down to 5/8”. Then screwing through fin to step in existing frame at point “b” make any sense? (my hair brain idea)
4) Any suggestions outside of these questions?

Thanks in advance for your time and talents.
Last edited by Don K. on Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:21 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Delaware Mike
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#10 Post by Delaware Mike » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:01 pm

I would insulate and seal with low-expansion foam the gap from the wood opening to the perimeter around the replacement/insert window. If water or air were to ever from some strange reason get around the capping and caulk seal of the capping to the accessory groove it would not be able to penetrate that void. We have a variety of pro guns with all sorts of reducer tips to fill the smallest of voids.

I'd like to see some pics of the exterior and interior of your current windows including close ups and siding.
Last edited by Delaware Mike on Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Don K.
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#11 Post by Don K. » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:10 pm

Delaware Mike wrote:.......I'd like to see some pics of the exterior and interior of your current windows including close ups and siding.
Thanks Delaware Mike, I’ll see about pictures, I’m just now figuring out how to get pictures on site. Just fixed above post to show image with post.

BTW, do you mean foam fill like between point “b” and “c”? That opening would be about 1" square.
Last edited by Don K. on Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Delaware Mike
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#12 Post by Delaware Mike » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:14 pm

I still haven't figured it out. :D

Don K.
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#13 Post by Don K. » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:24 pm

:lol: I’m not always best at describing things.
Basically top is interior of house and bottom is exterior. It is cross section view, like if you cut straight thru insert window frame and existing frame. Which shows what voids would be like when insert window is bolted in place.

Delaware Mike
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#14 Post by Delaware Mike » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:34 pm

I fully understand the print/drawling. Sounds like a solid plan. My curiosity was more towards what does the profile of the existing wood window's exterior look like? What shape is it in? What kind of siding and j-channel is there? Is there a nose projection to the sill? Drip cap? All of these factor into how a window might be capped?

Don K.
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#15 Post by Don K. » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:55 pm

Basically the profile would be what you see from point “b” around to J-channel which is also vinyl clad on the wood. With exposed/painted wood to interior from point “b” slightly past “a”

Siding and J-channel is vinyl. Drip rail over top between existing frame and J-channel (wrap could go between rail and wood/clad frame). Not sure what nose projection is, but I would say none since if it was there your question might be obvious to me. Edit: the double units do have strip on outside between where the two units are joined (nose projection maybe), but it can be pulled out for flat surface across both joined frames.

My main concern is other than wrap, what would be best process to seal interior from air and water infiltration.

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