Questions about vinyl replacement install

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masterext
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Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:14 am
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#16 Post by masterext »

Don K
You are really looking much too deep into this. Its a window install that any seasoned installer can do blind folded. Concentrate on some of the football games that will be played sunday rather than making yourself and your potential installer crazy.lol
Seriously, you need to relax.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#17 Post by Don K. »

masterext wrote:Don K
........Its a window install that any seasoned installer can do blind folded.....
Seriously, you need to relax.
:D
I know you’re trying to offer some good advice. But it will be 24 windows in total and 2 sliding doors to match (1ea 6ft and 1ea 9ft), which is going to amount to a large sum. Since I can’t tell if I’m talking to a seasoned installer without asking questions, I’m trying to gather enough information so I will know. The only way I could think of to do that was with the drawing and specific questions on page 1 of people here that I suspect are good seasoned installers.

As soon as I recognize a good seasoned installer to go with fair window I plan on relaxing.:D Thanks for your feedback.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#18 Post by Don K. »

Delaware Mike wrote:.....I'd like to see some pics of the exterior and interior of your current windows including close ups and siding.
Pictures as requested:

Double unit (most are these)
Image
Single unit
Image
Drip rail above
Image
Top with sash open
Image
Bottom with sash open
Image
When bulb seal and jam trim behind seal removed the existing frame profile will be as below from cross section on page 1.
Image
I know wrap will go from accessory groove around exterior face of existing frame and behind siding J-channel. As you can see there will no stops in this application. (unless added)
I just want to know what a proper install would be, concerning water and air infiltration at different points of cross section view. So I am a least knowledgeable enough to recognize a capable installer. Which is crux of following questions:

1) Other than outside wrap, what would be proper steps to seal the insert pocket unit? (What else would you do?)
2) Is caulk at point “a” along with exterior wrap adequate? (Suggested by one installer)
3) Does using a replacement insert with nail fin and cutting it down to 5/8”. Then screwing through fin to step in existing frame at point “b” make any sense? (my hair brain idea)
4) Any suggestions outside of these questions?

Edit: Removing siding around windows and using new construction windows has been suggested (probably best solution). However siding is in excellent condition and cannot be purchased if any is damaged (manufacture Timberwood out of business). I don’t want to take that chance nor do I want to reside entire house.

Thanks to all for your valuable time.

masterext
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:14 am
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#19 Post by masterext »

Don
That is a piece of cake installation. I am scratching my head wondering why these contractors arent conveying reassuring info to you. Are these guys salesman or actual installers?
Are these old pella or andersen casement windows?
The J channel would stay in tact by the way.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#20 Post by Don K. »

Masterext
One was salesman two were installers and I’m not sure why they don’t convey clear information to me. Other than the one talked about earlier that was going to nail into pocket unit vinyl frame :shock: And the one that my #2 question covers.
They are M&W windows (also no longer available with that color clad) with sash wood rot on bottom and several with moisture between panels, but frames in good shape.
Thanks, I figured J channel would stay with it just pulled enough for wrap to slide between it and existing clad frame.

Delaware Mike
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#21 Post by Delaware Mike »

Great pictures Don. We do retrofits on units like that often enough as does any full time window pro. I would install the inserts to the desired depth based upon covering the interior hardware and stop areas as best as possible with new stop moldings. I would inject the low-expansion foam from the exterior and fill all voids to the perimeter of the new window and let set up. Capping would be fabricated up with a return hem for the accessory groove and face dimensions based upon top and bottom measurements at 90-degree returns to j-channel throat and metal clad returns in reference to accessory groove. I don't even know if I worded that correctly as I'm so tired.

I do my best to pitch the sill cap a few degrees for water drain off to. I don't use any trim nails for this type of capping. The capping is held in place by precision bends and how the capping fits into the accessory groove and j-channel return. I typically will back caulk the capping face with something like Quad or Novaflex that will sort of clad itself to the existing aluminum narrow line frame face. Once the final caulking is performed if done with correct sealant and application, you should never have an issue.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#22 Post by Don K. »

Delaware Mike,
Wow… Thanks man… That’s just the kind of info I needed. You worded it great, must have because even I understood it.

To bad you don’t install in my area, you would have a job! If you installed Simonton 5500 vinyl casement windows.

masterext
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:14 am
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#23 Post by masterext »

Where are you located Don ?

Don K.
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#24 Post by Don K. »

masterext wrote:Where are you located Don ?
Southeastern VA …. Between Richmond and Norfolk ….. Williamsburg VA to be exact

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#25 Post by Windows on Washington »

Nice part of town. Was just driving through there last week. Man...64 is a PITB for traffic though.

I am not a huge fan of that J-channel detail to be certain. Mitre looks a bit sloppy and I am not sure it is lapped properly.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#26 Post by Don K. »

Windows on Washington wrote:Nice part of town. Was just driving through there last week. Man...64 is a PITB for traffic though.

I am not a huge fan of that J-channel detail to be certain. Mitre looks a bit sloppy and I am not sure it is lapped properly.
Right… But not sure any worse than 95 up your way.

Yeah… Original siding installer did fair job, except for J-channel as you noted.

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HomeSealed
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, SE Wisconsin

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#27 Post by HomeSealed »

Don K. wrote:
Delaware Mike wrote:.....I'd like to see some pics of the exterior and interior of your current windows including close ups and siding.
Pictures as requested:

Double unit (most are these)
Image
Single unit
Image
Drip rail above
Image
Top with sash open
Image
Bottom with sash open
Image
When bulb seal and jam trim behind seal removed the existing frame profile will be as below from cross section on page 1.
Image
I know wrap will go from accessory groove around exterior face of existing frame and behind siding J-channel. As you can see there will no stops in this application. (unless added)
I just want to know what a proper install would be, concerning water and air infiltration at different points of cross section view. So I am a least knowledgeable enough to recognize a capable installer. Which is crux of following questions:

1) Other than outside wrap, what would be proper steps to seal the insert pocket unit? (What else would you do?)
2) Is caulk at point “a” along with exterior wrap adequate? (Suggested by one installer)
3) Does using a replacement insert with nail fin and cutting it down to 5/8”. Then screwing through fin to step in existing frame at point “b” make any sense? (my hair brain idea)
4) Any suggestions outside of these questions?

Edit: Removing siding around windows and using new construction windows has been suggested (probably best solution). However siding is in excellent condition and cannot be purchased if any is damaged (manufacture Timberwood out of business). I don’t want to take that chance nor do I want to reside entire house.

Thanks to all for your valuable time.
First of all, great advice from Mike above...
Just to reinforce or address anything that was not already answered:
1) Insulation foam, caulk on exterior (and interior if requested), and integration into existing head flashing. NOT TO BE WRAPPED OVER
2)Not in my opinion.
3)None whatsoever.
4)Not really. Mike has the bases pretty much covered. Only other option would be a full tear-out.
Going back to that comment from one installer about "nailing into the vinyl", I wonder if he was referring to nailing into the existing frame and/or through the j-channel to attach his exterior trim. Hard to say.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#28 Post by Don K. »

HomeSealed
Thanks for your time and advice. Because of you, Mike and others I now have good idea about proper install and how to recognize a good installer (my goal with this thread).

The installer that suggested #2 was one that seemed to have interest in doing good job, but when he said that process was adequate, it didn’t seem so to me. But I don’t consider myself knowledgeable in window install so I asked here. I did get a chuckle from your replay to #3 “None whatsoever” :lol: I guess that confirms it being “hair brain idea”. :oops:
Going back to that comment from one installer about "nailing into the vinyl", I wonder if he was referring to nailing into the existing frame and/or through the j-channel to attach his exterior trim. Hard to say.
Yeah… I still want to believe that’s what she (not misspelled) was thinking, even though I questioned in way I though could not be misunderstood. Her title was “Installation Service Manager”, but claimed to have done installations for years prior. :?

User avatar
HomeSealed
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, SE Wisconsin

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#29 Post by HomeSealed »

Sounds good Don, sounds like you are on the right track. That's what we are here for :)

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#30 Post by Guy »

Hi Don! I don't visit as much as I used to because I'm retired and work harder now than ever. I think a lot of the frustration you see here is based on the different installation processes used across our Nation. My application here in MN is much more elaborate than Randy in Texas. The exterior capping process is generally the same everywhere. The reason for the aluminum capping is to cover any imperfections around the new window and give you a maintenance free exterior. Applying the capping into the accessory groove is a common practice. It should be hemmed on that end and pressure fit into the groove. My guys all have a nice sized plastic block we hit with a hammer to knock the hem into the groove. The rest of the capping can be bent in detail to cover any exposed wood or gaps. We do a brickmould bend to give the window a nicer appearance. Others just box bend and do it the easy way. The capping should seal up the exterior and add a nice appearance. It should be tucked behind the J-Molding and sealed with caulking. In most cases I bend my capping snug to the new window and existing frame. Nobody in their right mind would ever use a nail to fasten capping to the new vinyl window. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Pressure fit the groove and caulk. Here in MN we always apply new stops. Especially exterior stops. This gives the new window a stable resting place and offers a nice pocket to foam. It also gives you a place to nail your capping if the window doesn't have an accessory groove. New Windows should always look like they've been there forever. Most manufacturers require shimming at each fastener. It's just poor installation practices if not used. Don you should be concerned about your installation. It's where most failures are!!

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