Questions about vinyl replacement install

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Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#31 Post by Don K. »

Guy,
Thanks for your time and reply. I have come to recognize all you have said to be good information. What is puzzling to me, is when I question local contractors about how installation will be done, I always get either “don’t worry about it I know what I’m doing” or answers that represent what I think is poor practices. Unlike here when ask, I get good info and installation descriptions that makes perfect sense to me even though I’m not a window installer. It disheartens me to think even if I pay for decent or good window it’s most likely going to be poorly installed. And so far they (local installers) seem to think I should accept that without question.
:?

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TheWindowNerd
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: SE PA & NJ; DFW/Metroplex

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#32 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Sorry for being late to the party.
1st I would look for the best vinyl casement window possible. Have ya looked at Okna 700DX or Sunrise?
You might be able to tempt DE Mike to come do your job, or I might, or WOW might.
Windows on Washington is the closest to you, why not hit Eric's "get a quote".

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#33 Post by Don K. »

TheWindowNerd wrote:......Have ya looked at Okna 700DX or Sunrise?.....
Hey WindowNerd,
I did look at Okna 700 at dealer in VA Beach but they didn’t service my area. The window looked good from an engineered mechanical stand point (my only abilities). As it happens I just signed contract and made down payment yesterday with Window World. Primarily because they had best pricing with Alside casement window, which looked as well engineered and finished as any I have looked at. Also they where the only one that uses the same installation technique as Delaware Mike described and I mean almost exactly, right down to sprayed (QE) closed cell foam to fill cavity between frames. I was trying to avoid Window World because of cheat reputation, but honestly from all I have seen their product looks decent and installation technique is best available to me in my area.

masterext
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:14 am
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#34 Post by masterext »

Maybe the installer is good but talk to me in a few years about your window world casement window and tell me you are still happy, im guessing you wont be. They are cheap for a reason. And no, they are not engineered the same way as the higher end vinyl windows. You fell victim to one of the classic window selection blunders; " the cheap price syndrome". Lol

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#35 Post by Don K. »

masterext,
I will update after install in couple months or so (8 week delivery) and after few years as you suggest. You may be correct about quality that is not apparent visually. I was not looking for cheapest, I weighted window, installation and cost equally and went for best two out of three since I could not get all three from dealers servicing my area. It was either pay more for better name window with what I felt was terrible installation (waste of high quality window) or fair window with great install at slightly lower price. Basically forced to this after 2 month delay (one of first quotes) trying to find better window and good install. Guess this shows all areas are not equal when someone is willing to pay for quality but can’t get it to come together.

uncle eddie
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:52 pm

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#36 Post by uncle eddie »

Don, I'd argue that you only got one of the 3. PRICE. It is widely known that bargain based companies like that pay their installers less than the going rate. Maybe somebody said the things that you were looking to hear, but it would not be shocking if that individual wasn't even with the company by the time that your windows are installed. Sales guys and installers go through a revolving door in bargain companies due to the low pay (they have to cut somewhere to sell at those numbers). Combine that with a product that most would consider marginal, and that is not a recipe with a high rate of success.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#37 Post by Don K. »

uncle eddie,
You’re advice is sound and I understand what you’re saying. I was aware enough to get the install process documented in writing on the signed contract from company representative. So when installation starts, if it starts to be done differently I will stop them and demand it be done as per written contract (no word of mouth involved). Now will the talent of installers be there I can’t actually say, but will be watching for poor practices that I can notice. As far as Alside casement window is concerned, I have learnt during this process that they are now exact same as Revere casement which are both now owned by Ply Gem (I think). Not sure if changes have been made to construction from originals or not. Things I noticed was it had three sealing points (two bulb one outer edge wiper type), stainless steel hardware, sash support block at bottom when closed (similar to roller support on some high end windows), steel support rails in extrusion for hardware screw points, just happen to have dual operator arms (not necessary as you and others said on other thread, but nice little extra), same number of locking points and hardware type as high end windows. With one non mounted unit (no external support) that I opened sash and tested flexibility of frame and sash by hand (my improvised vinyl and pocket support test), stiffness of both was as good or better than some higher end units. The only thing I could not evaluate was quality of vinyl material itself (lower quality could be hidden there, not sure). There was three windows that cheapness was easily spotted (surprisingly one was a Pella), but I was unable to find negativity in Alside other than maybe bulb seal design, not sure (just a little different than others). As you can see I took this evaluation seriously and I truly placed less emphasis on price (even though I said all three equal). If I had been able to get high end window with good install in my area without price being astronomical, that would have been my decision but just couldn’t get there.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#38 Post by Guy »

Don I applaud your sourcing and information gathering to make the best decision possible. I'd also like to say I'm sorry that your visit here may not have been what you would have expected. When this forum started a long time ago we had a core of Pros here who's main goal was to share the vast knowledge of information we had to help consumers make the best choice possible. We were here to educate people like you to make good decisions when buying Windows or Doors. We never chased after customers here and vowed not to share our pricing. We answered any question we could and always tried to treat everyone with great respect. We literally had people coming here from all around the world seeking advice and knowledge. In most cases we were giving out knowledge here for absolutely nothing. We weren't making a dime here for anything we gave out. None of us ever expected anything. We had a group of guys from all across this Nation that became great friends and had the utmost respect for each other. I was getting paid well to teach this information to others during the day and giving it away at night online. I loved every minute of it! But a great thing never lasts. Eventually other so called Pros came on misleading people and causing nothing but issues. Pros were talking down to people like yourself because you were unable to grasp a theory. Then there were salespeople arguing with us about how great their window was. It really lost that great place to come and chat about our trade. The Pros back then never argued with the other Pros about how much better their installation process was compared to others. For example I never pushed my installation procedures here in MN against my well respected friend Randy in Texas or WOW in his neck of the woods. We would compare notes but I would never expect anyone down South installing Windows like we do here in the Great White North! I've been in this trade since 1974. I've never claimed to know everything and always tried to learn something new each day. I can say I learned more here than I could have ever imagined. When all the know it alls came aboard they really drove this forum in the ground. Consumers were being treated like idiots and made fun of. I personally, with about four other Pros just walked away. We occasionally make a Cameo Appearance to support our old pals. But it's sad to see there's still those who disrespect others and throw mud. I hope you found something to write home on.
I'll share my theory with you to try and pull it all together. Here's the bottom line in my opinion. I don't care who's Windows you buy or what they are made of. I don't care if you bought the most expensive or cheapest Windows on the market. It all boils down to the installation!!! Nothing else matters! I don't care what you hear or how it's said. Installation is the key to every successful job. I can take that top of the line window you bought and install it to last longer than the cheap one. It will last a little longer because it was built better. We as installers don't have to go that extra mile because the window helps the process along. The thing people don't understand is the cheaper window can also be installed to be very efficient. It has to be installed knowing it's not top of the line. We know it's a cheaper window so it requires more attention. More shims, more fasteners, more detail to the functionality of the product. If the cheap window is installed properly with some pampering it will bring you some great years of usability. The cheaper window will fail before the top dog. It will just fall apart do to subpar manufacturing or quality properties. This isn't rocket science in any way. As installers it's our job to make sure we installed that window to code and gave it the best chance to last as long as possible.
To sum it all up Don let me leave you with this. For every 50 Windows that get returned back to their manufacturer for product failure....Ill guarantee you if inspected by a true professional. It will be determined that 45 of those windows were installed improperly and not failing. The installer will be to blame almost every time. It's just easier to blame the manufacturer!! Peace be with you and your journey ahead. Pay attention and don't settle for imperfections. If you don't like it, change it!! Good Luck!!!

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#39 Post by Don K. »

Thanks Guy,

I can read you’re sincerity into this post. I would truly like to thank you and a few others here that have greatly helped me better understand finer points of windows and installation, to go along with my general engineering mechanical knowledge to come to a decision. In my location with installers available to me, my decision was narrowed to best of lesser evils not best all-round. Such is life sometimes I guess.

But I do appreciate yours and others time and expertise in this experience.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#40 Post by Don K. »

Don K. wrote: ....... Now will the talent of installers be there I can’t actually say, but will be watching for poor practices that I can notice.
.............
masterext wrote:Maybe the installer is good but talk to me in a few years about your window world casement window and tell me you are still happy, im guessing you wont be...........
I promised update after install of Alside casement and patio doors. They were installed last week and I must say I was pleasantly surprised at quality and talent of install crew. Maybe their best crew was sent because of job size (24 windows and 2 patio doors). The lead man of group had exceptional talent and attention to detail, which he made sure was followed throughout. I am relieved as quality of install worried me because of some negative reviews.

Windows came with insulating foam attached to outside frame, which made a sealed fit when slid into existing frame left after old sashes, hardware and inside trim removed. Windows were screwed in place, then OSI foam filled the exterior gap between old frame and replacement. Wrap was then applied to outside which was an exact match for outside color I had chosen and style to flow with my contemporary house. A thin white vinyl trim with caulk added an extra air tight seal to inside, which followed my all white interior with a very finished look. So 4 air barriers were applied; outside wrap, closed cell foam, soft insulating foam attached to windows and inside caulk/vinyl strip. Of course 2 water barriers; outside wrap and spray foam sealing outside of both frames.

I am completely satisfied to this point. Now only thing left is durability of Alside casement as masterext pointed out, which only time will tell (many years I hope). I would like to thank all again that advised me, which allowed me to make most of a non-perfect situation.
Last edited by Don K. on Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Delaware Mike
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#41 Post by Delaware Mike »

Don,

Thanks for spending the time to describe you installation and positive experience. We like to hear good news. Enjoy your new windows.

masterext
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:14 am
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#42 Post by masterext »

Don K
Im pretty confident you wont have any issues buddy. Glad to see things worked out for you. Thanks for the feedback.

Don K.
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:12 am

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#43 Post by Don K. »

At ~ month and half shy of four years now and still completely happy with my windows and the install. I felt need to visit here and again thank all of you that helped me understand finer points of window replacement.

Earlier today I updated my evaluation of the Alside Casement windows at near 4 years.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5934

I’m convinced at this point that following the great information supplied (especially installation best practices) by all here, help me turn a less than desirable situation into a livable result. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN.

uncle eddie
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:52 pm

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#44 Post by uncle eddie »

Window World, Alside, Revere are AMI products, not Plygem. Late response on that.
As for your update, so far so good I guess. Every window that they produce is not going to fall apart or be unsatisfactory, there are just more of them that do/are than many other manufacturers. Same for the install. Sure, a guy that gets paid half of the company down the street may do a good job, I just probably wouldn't take the chance. You could also walk through a kennel of pitballs with no pants and peanut butter smeared on your jewel pouch and not be harmed, but again, not sure that I'd take those odds. At four years in, you could have water dripping into your walls from incorrect flashing that you aren't able to identify, but maybe not. Let's set another check-in for 2024. Hopefully all will still be good, and all the peanut butter is untouched.

masterext
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:14 am
Location: Window Pro-Serves All of Northern New Jersey. Bergen, Morris, Union, Essex, Passaic, Sussex Counties

Re: Questions about vinyl replacement install

#45 Post by masterext »

“You could also walk through a kennel of pitballs with no pants and peanut butter smeared on your jewel pouch and not be harmed, but again, not sure that I'd take those odds.”

i agree with Uncle Eddie. i tried that and i now have a permanently high voice.
the good news is i get to use a trans gender bathroom.

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