Drafts Again

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Dimes
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:50 am

Drafts Again

#1 Post by Dimes »

Got the Okna Starmark replacement windows in 2 years ago.
Last winter noticed that the outer casing was bowing in the middle causing drafts between it and the sash.
The installers came and adjusted the shim screws to push the outer casing back towards the sash and close the gap. But noticing that the gaps are back again this winter - guessing it may have something to do with the cold weather??
Either way - is this normal? How pissed should I be at this point? These were $750 windows.
Installers are coming to look at the again today.

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Windows on Washington
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 am
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC

Re: Drafts Again

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

Dimes,

Have the installer come back again. If this continues to happen, there are two likely scenarios for the failure.

1. The Product has some issues in the lineals of the frame or
2. The window was installed poorly

Keep us posted with what they say.

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HomeSealed
Posts: 2996
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, SE Wisconsin

Re: Drafts Again

#3 Post by HomeSealed »

+1. Have the installer back out. Sounds like perhaps they were not effectively supported around the frame, either by shims or foam which should prevent that much movement. That is purely speculation though, of course. Have the installers back out to assess and report back ;)

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Drafts Again

#4 Post by Guy »

This is usually a sign of stuff in insulation. If the window is properly shimmed, screwed, and foamed it should never move. Low expansion foam will act as an adhesive and insulation barrier in all areas its applied. The one thing I always see is the lack of shimming. I can see the warmer climate areas not using them religiously but here in MN we have to. The season changes cause movement. We have Summer days in the 100 degrees and Winters in the -30's - -50's. Expansion and contraction is a way of life. If I was a betting man I'd say there's fiberglass insulation or improper foaming. I agree with HomeSealed and also speculating. But the odds are highly in our favor on this one. Good Luck!!!

Dimes
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Drafts Again

#5 Post by Dimes »

So the Home Improvement person came today - sure enough, just as you said, the windows where I had the air infiltration had no shims in them. I saw this for myself when they removed the trim. The guy added wooden shims to two windows. But begs the question were all my windows installed like this, and how can you install a window with no shims?? I'm in Mass.

Home Improvement company responded that the windows come with side expanders built in that eliminate the need for shims. I guess these were the screw's at each side of the frame that they came and adjusted a couple of times before. The screws had broke or were not threading on the two windows I had adjusted today - so that's why they needed to add the shims.
Make sense?

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HomeSealed
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm
Location: Milwaukee, Madison, SE Wisconsin

Re: Drafts Again

#6 Post by HomeSealed »

It does make sense. Those are called jamb expanders or jamb jacks among other things. They basically act as "adjustable shims" in the center of the window (vertically). They help to get everything dialed in. Using actual shims there is arguably better, but it is pretty widely accepted to use jamb jacks at that spot, especially with the foam. It is not often that I see them fail, but certainly possible. Last guy probably ran them all the way out and didn't realize.... The MOST important part of this though is that they came out to make it right, and did it right.

Delaware Mike
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area

Re: Drafts Again

#7 Post by Delaware Mike »

Dimes, one cannot in my opinion properly install any type of door without the correct utilization of shims. Older windows back in the that were secured to the rough opening by means of nails most certainly needed shims as well. Most modern vinyl insert replacement windows have recessed or offset jamb profiles in which only about 10 to 20% of the vinyl would be touching a shim. Most installers these days utilize impact drivers and will allow the threads of the stainless phillips screws act as shims along with spray foam. I guarantee that if this is performed correctly with no gap from the backside of the pan head factory supplied screw to it's secure torquing to the vinyl wall with the addition of spray foam that you would not get any movement of the frame.

If we are installing a flat profile side jamb designed window like that of Sunrise or Plygem, and it's an interior install method, shims are utilized and are a good idea. Outside installs where as the interior stops are left untouched make utilization of wood shims more challenging. Paying close attention to the weatherstripping to master frame contact/reveal is very important and should be elementary to any window installers knowledge. I prefer driving an extra screw instead of the jamb jack myself as it locks that area better.

We always utilize shims underneath windows as needed to level and not just hang the windows from the screws. Spray foam completes and compliments the shims.

Dimes
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Drafts Again

#8 Post by Dimes »

So in the end the home improvement company put actual wood shims in 5 of my windows - so at least I can now monitor these and compare them to the windows with just the screw in shims or jamb jacks, for movement in the frames.

If I've learned anything from getting replacement windows, it's that the install is the most important piece. There is no point paying up for a high quality replacement window like the Starmark from Okna if the home improvement company is going to sub out the install to the cheapest guy they can find, and thus the installer has every reason to cut as many corners as possible.

I would recommend only buying windows from a company that uses it's own company installers - and have them put that in the contract.

Thanks to everyone here for all the great advice.

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HomeSealed
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Location: Milwaukee, Madison, SE Wisconsin

Re: Drafts Again

#9 Post by HomeSealed »

Great explanation by DM.
@Dimes, you are right, installation is highly important and is an aspect that is overlooked by most folks as they get caught up in analyzing minor differences from one product to the next. Where I'd suggest pumping the brakes a little bit is on the employee vs subcontractor issue. For the record, I have utilized both, and continue to. That said, when I was out in the field working for others, I only did so as a sub. The reason being is that you can make exponentially more money that way. Because of this, in my experience, subs are generally found to have a higher level of skill, and they also understand the finer points of customer service and what comes with running a business. The companies that use scare tactics on this issue will say that subs are encouraged to work faster being paid by piece, which could affect quality. The response is that they know that they have to do it right the first time or they will be back fixing it for free. Hourly employees don't have that same incentive. To be sure, there are great installers both ways and terrible installers both ways, but better pay typically = better quality installers. That same philosophy can be applied to the business model of the company chosen as well, but that is another conversation entirely. Ultimately, you want a company that is well versed in the latest and greatest installation techniques and stands behind their installers regardless of how uncle sam gets his cut. :wink:

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Win-admin
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Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:59 pm

Re: Drafts Again

#10 Post by Win-admin »

@Dimes,

It would be great if you could share your review of your Okna Starmark with other users who come to our site in our dedicated review section!

Add your Review Here:
http://www.replacement-windows.com/revi ... indows.php

Current Single Starmark Review:
http://www.replacement-windows.com/cons ... t/starmark

Thanks!

Win-Admin

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