Energy efficient windows, does it really matter?

[patgilm]

I live in a house that is almost 20 years old. We decided to stay in our house instead of building a custom home and by doing this, given the age of our home, we had to do a bunch of replacements. Over the summer we replaced every window in our house including a sliding glass patio door, 6 picture windows, large picture window with arch over our front door and basement windows with Softlite Imperial LS windows that included all the upgrades. I had several salespeople over for replacement windows and all mentioned how energy efficient their windows were and how much we would save on our utility bill. In October I also purchased a Provia fiberglass door with transom and sidelites that were energy efficient as well as a new HVAC unit (Carrier Infinity) and an energy efficient hot water heater. My mindset, similar to many pros on this board, is to do it right the first time and by doing so we decided to get some of the best products money can buy with proper installation using low expansion foam. So you can see that I spent a relatively large amount on unexciting home improvements and I was hoping to see a decent amount of energy savings each month since our old windows, doors, HVAC were 20 years old and very inefficient (supposedly).

So I compared utility bills this year and last year and the savings are minimal between gas and electric. This is based on kWh and therms used each month and for the last two months it has been 10 degrees warmer than last year. The savings even based on the utility pricing this year is about $35. Now we needed to replace the products discussed above anyway but given the lack of true savings each month, what is the point of getting such a great window with great performance numbers? Do the great air infiltration numbers, u factor or R value even matter compared to so so performance numbers? In my case I am not sure it really matters. Even if the windows didn't make a difference, I would have expected savings from the HVAC and gas hot water heater but it seems like even that didn't make a difference. What gives? Any thoughts?

[Windows on Washington]

I am not sure who was saving you would save "X" with new windows, door, and HVAC system, but every home is different in terms of what makes up the "energy savings depth chart".

Windows and doors will usually make it on the top 5 in the case of most homes, but air sealing and insulation will usually have a more dramatic impact. Again, every home is different in how it looses energy, orientation, and where the improvements are going to come for.

Regardless of fuel savings on the windows portion, you don't have to get anywhere near 100% out of them in fuel saving as there is typically and average of +75% ROI on good windows that you will recoup if and when you sell the home.

Now you get to enjoy the windows for the duration until that happens and still benefit from the modest fuel savings and the improved functionality.

Sorry that they haven't delivered what you expected so far, but we would really need to crunch the numbers a bit more to see what the home is doing and what the season has done so far.

[patgilm]

Yeah I am going to get an energy audit just to see what's up. No one said I would save a certain dollar amount or % amount but every single one of them, and there were many, touted energy savings. I didn't think that I would save a ton but coupled with a new efficient HVAC system I just expected to save more than a few bucks.

[Windows on Washington]

Well...while I would love to say they are wrong and just being "salesmanny"...We tend to get just the type of feedback they are hinting towards.

There might be something yet to be discovered on the home that is keeping the figures up high and if that gets fixed, it allows everything else to work at maximum efficiency.

Example: We did a bunch of work for a client with not much improvement and she wasn't happy. There was a closet that was full of stuff and appeared to be drywall'ed in this blind corner. Turns out it was totally open to this false dormer that we actually saw once we did the test out stuff again and got her to move her stuff. Closed it up and sealed it and the house was as tight as a drum and her bills went to about 33% of what they were.

[masterext]

Windows occupy a large portion of the openings in a home. No matter how you slice it, replacing inefficient windows with efficient windows will make a large difference. Sometimes customers tell me they didnt quite save as much as they thought but yet the house is much warmer. At that point the investment is still paying off immensly. At the end of the day its all about comfort.
That being said, if you have other inefficient area's of the home such as an attic, leaky doors, or poorly insulated walls, they need to be addressed.

[HomeSealed]

Good feedback above. One of two things is happening:
1) Your home has some other major deficiencies ...or...
2) Your home was in really good shape to start with so there wasn't that much to be gained.

Sitting on this side of the fence, I can say that we have replaced windows for folks that have reported a tremendous savings to the point where I even questioned it, and others that have been more modest with the same products.

If 1) the energy audit should find those deficiencies so that they may be able to be addressed.
If 2) The worst case scenario here is that you used high quality products that are going to sustain that performance and last for a long time. Remember, the performance ratings don't only indicate how the products can be expected to perform, but they also are typically a great indicator of product quality and durability. As WOW alluded to, the latest Remodeling Magazine 2016 cost vs value report puts the ROI at 70-75% (depending on geographical location) for high end window replacement. That is ONLY considering the return in improved value to your home, with no regard for the energy savings or quality of life improvements.

The long and short of it is, you made a wise investment by getting quality stuff, regardless of the external circumstances. Get that audit done and let us know the details. A handful of us pros here are experienced in that space as well and can contribute additional feedback.

[patgilm]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure if I would rather know that my house wasn't that bad before or that my house is still bad after my upgrades and I have to pay more money to seal it. I have a hard time believing my old windows were adequate since every seal was broken and you could feel the air coming in the house in several of them which at least now that is not the case. The HVAC replacement I think should have made some difference, every person that came out to look at the old unit just laughed how old and inefficient it was but who knows.

Overall, I am happy with my purchases and they were definitely needed, 20 years is a long time. Some of the windows were so fogged up I couldn't even see out of them and some I could barely open. The new ones are so much nicer and with lifetime warranties (I know limited lifetime) for the doors and windows, I should be covered. I was just expecting a little more savings than what I got which was really a wash considering the higher temperatures over the prior year in the same period.

Once I get my energy audit done, hopefully I will be able to see where some deficiencies lie and then I can try and fix those things if they aren't too expensive. Regardless, I will report back when I find out, stay tuned.

[HomeSealed]

Most important thing to remember, and your energy consultant I'm sure will vouch for this, is that your house works as a system. Everything is reliant upon and affected by something else.

Sounds like the windows were a necessity either way.

[Windows on Washington]

Definitely post up your results and findings. Put a picture of the home too. We can take bets on the over under for the blower door number and the findings of the audit.

[patgilm]

Sorry, not sure how to make them smaller.

[Windows on Washington]

Air seal and insulate upper attic - seal mechanic chase, duct work, etc.
Insulate and seal garage kneewall area and install blockers inside floor joists
Air seal (if accessible) garage/bonus room attic
Rear cantilevers should be insulated on back of main home
Air seal and insulate all ribbon boards in any unfinished sections of the basement.

Blower door number guess for on the way in is going to be 3850 - 4450

Test out number (if you do all of the above) should approach a 30% reduction

[patgilm]

Air seal and insulate upper attic - seal mechanic chase, duct work, etc.
Insulate and seal garage kneewall area and install blockers inside floor joists
Air seal (if accessible) garage/bonus room attic
Rear cantilevers should be insulated on back of main home
Air seal and insulate all ribbon boards in any unfinished sections of the basement.

Blower door number guess for on the way in is going to be 3850 - 4450

Test out number (if you do all of the above) should approach a 30% reduction

I don't know half of what you said here, LOL, but they are coming out next Monday so I will provide an update.

There is only a very small portion of my basement that isn't finished which is in the middle of my basement where the furnace and hot water heater is, everything else is completely finished. The back part of the garage is our master walk in closet and the rest is storage accessible through a pull down ladder in my garage so there is access.

[Windows on Washington]

Read up if you have time. It will make what they talk about make more sense.
https://www.energycodes.gov/sites/defa ... _lores.pdf

Good Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n3QCBw ... re=related

http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/ ... report.pdf

[HomeSealed]

get your own links.
-Gary

[Windows on Washington]

get your own links.
-Gary

HA...!!!

Get some purpose sir.