Insane People Shouldn't Buy Houses

[ajaye]

I ended up here for the same reason many others have in the past I imagine, and I'm also guessing the subsequent series of events will look familiar to some as well. The abridged version is:
1. Get windows
2. Against better judgement, defer to the experience of "professionals" instead of installing DIY. (I have done trade work and some specialized installation work similar to what's required for window install. I would be that guy checking sill for level with my Hilti laser.)
3. Check operation and closely examine windows the following day (so as not to disturb uncured caulking/sealant). Find every single top sash of double-hungs to be bowed (smiling) on top. Some top sashes fit loosely enough that I can angle them to where one side meets the head and the other side is 1/2" lower. Find both large sashes of horizontal slider to be bowed at the top enough that the middle 1/3 of the weatherstrip is sagging below the stop/frame (what's the point). It had rained that day, there was water on top of the rear track inside the house right at the meeting rail. Find bottom 1/2 of both side jambs of slider crowned enough that I can rock a 36" level, and it is not allowing sashes to close completely. Meeting rail will be flush at the top and not at the bottom with both locks engaged, water has come in on top of rear track every rain so far. I get that its a slider with a weep system but if water comes in that easily what is going to happen when its blowing hard and 10 degrees this winter. The alignment of the slider sash frames and the master frame is absolutely hideous-looking and gets worse when the sashes are opened some.
4. Call sales person. He sends installers (subs) who insist the job is done perfectly and deny some of my concerns exist, as if I am seeing a mirage. The meeting does not end well.
5. Manufacturer's rep comes a week and 1/2 later (was travelling for holiday) and claims "this is the nature of vinyl windows, they all operate smoothly so I cannot authorize replacements. I will replace the really bowed top sash in kitchen if you want but it probably won't do anything or be much different. None of these things will affect how the windows perform."
6. Prepare for litigation.

So I'm guessing most people accept that at step 5 they shouldn't worry or are just over worrying about it at that point. Its not like you can rip the windows out real quick and get a refund. I'm frustrated, disappointed with myself, furious with the tactics of the sales person, who has not made a single effort to follow up with me since the day of the install (and payment), and questioning whether I am being too particular (I have been called "anal" once or twice). The company came highly recommended from two different people and I could not find any negative information/complaints on them or the windows despite exhaustive research.

My house was built in 1961. I bought it in November, and spent the first 5-6 weeks just trying to get it to be reasonable to heat in the winter. I made some pretty massive improvements for minimal financial investment but a great deal of time and effort was spent and I really do not want to go backwards. I have concerns about what you can't see of the install also, specifically the rough openings not getting blocked to close off the wall cavities (single wythe brick veneer, 1-2-ish inch gap behind brick, celotex, framing, rock lath/plaster in that order). My HVAC system uses framing cavities in the walls and panned joists for the return air from each room. Although I've spent more time than any sane person would bother with sealing these where I could, the wall cavities are still under negative pressure whenever that air handler is going, so it is pretty important to me that the gap directly behind the brick and the framing cavity communicate as little as possible.

I knew they weren't going to spray foam and was OK w/ that since I wanted the opportunity to make minor adjustments if needed and I am probably more capable of doing the foaming anyway. Plus they took lots of real nice chunks out of my plaster returns that I have to fix so their caulking on the interior will be coming off regardless. They claimed during the install that the "poly foam wrap" that I ordered for the frame was sufficient insulation when I asked, which also raised a red flag, but it prevented them from glass-packing the frames so I won't have to contend with that at least. I also ended up with very nice looking aluminum capping on my lintel above the large slider on the first floor, but its sealed all the way around. I asked if the gap should be left open to allow drainage and got a shitty response like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Lastly, despite both the salesperson and the installer taking measurements prior to ordering on separate occasions, no one measured the masonry/brick opening. The only measurement taken was stool to return at the top of the opening/head on the inside. The marble stool and the rough opening sill are lower than the angled exterior brick sill. The replacement frame/sill does rest on the brick sill, but I imagine just barely as its about 1/2" behind where the prior windows sat on the sill, despite these being a deeper-framed replacement window than the prior (80s vinyl, not the good kind that were disc-shaped and had Poison songs embedded in grooves either). So I imagine the minute the giant clumpy untooled bead of caulking fails I'm getting water coming in.

OK so I needed to vent (no pun intended), but feedback welcomed and appreciated. I have some pictures I will post also.

[HomeSealed]

Sorry to hear about your ordeal. Definitely sounds like there are some issues, some maybe big, some maybe not... If you do have some pics you can probably get some specific feedback.

[ajaye]

Its difficult to get pictures that can really convey the degree to which some of the sashes are bowed because the weatherstripping on the top fills in the void between the reference edge and the sash edge. If you look at the closer pics you can see the stripping is actually compressed at the outside edges by the weight of the level, but there is daylight (or would be if it was daytime) under the level the further toward the center you go. The sashes leaning against the wall are the sliders. I have a lot more pics at home.

I guess my biggest concerns are how well can these possibly be sealing with that much bow and/or deflection, and if this is what they look like day 1, what am I going to be left with on say day 1095 (in 3 years, I used a calculator)? And if they won't replace it under warranty now, how much worse does it have to get/how much money do I have to (LITERALLY) throw out the window losing my conditioned air until they are bad enough?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B04Xr ... dXMUtaaHE4
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B04Xr ... VwbnZuOXFB
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B04Xr ... F4eEVWTk9B
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B04Xr ... 01N1hpT3FZ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B04Xr ... otS0U4ZTNV
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B04Xr ... Fqcjd0cTZF

[TheWindowNerd]

Shame on Vista Windows for such sloppy fabrication.
The bowing shown in the pictures is not an installation issue it is a MFG issue. Capping a steel lintel is an install issuethe cap can be sealed to the lintel but not to the masonry above, this is a drain plane.
I do not know how the windows are glazed, 2 typical ways are tape or wet bed. If the sash are deglazed and then reglaze with the rails and stile straight you would be OK.
theWindowNerd.

[Windows on Washington]

Not a huge fabrication issue in my opinion but some details are missing.

They didn't put in the IGU spacers and the sash lineals were pushed on when it was glazed in. Cutting the glue free or warming it up as you pull it out should straighten it out.

Vinyl has a memory in this case and it will want to be straight as it was when it was an un-welded lineal. Pop it loose from the glue/glazing seal and it should straighten out.

I have done it to other vinyl windows (usually a much larger picture window frame), but I can't impugn Vista on this alone. There are other things wrong with that brand, but this isn't necessarily one of those things.

[ajaye]

Thank you guys for the feedback so far. I really do appreciate it. I know these windows are what they are. My house has some room to spend a little money on improvements and be OK should the need to sell arise, but I can't go too crazy on any one thing or I may shoot myself in the foot. I also understand that the bowing may not be a huge issue, but they showed up at my house like this and the bottom line is its not right. For the amount of money I paid, they should never have been installed without, at the very least, a discussion taking place. The installers either a. didn't have the knowledge or the wherewithal to realize every single window had this issue or b. saw it and chose to ignore it because they didn't care. Neither option instills much confidence. Fortunately I do legal work and everyone in my office is either an attorney or a judge so the litigation isn't going to be a huge hassle...no more so than any litigation is a huge hassle anyway.

I also forgot to mention that I paid extra for krypton fill in all the windows among a few other options. Its on the "contract" clear as day. According to the NFRC number on the stickers, I got 60/30/10. Not happy about that.

Heres a short video of the apparent out-of-plumb slider frame. The other side is the same. Disregard me trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about, just watch the level.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B04Xrk ... sp=sharing

[Delaware Mike]

I had used Vista in 2007-2008 for sort of a drop type budget window. I saw quite a bit of short comings in how their windows were designed and quickly replaced them with better manufacturers. None of what I'm seeing surprises me. Many manufacturers can make smaller windows without incident, however when the larger units are made, the problems quickly escalate.

The installers if qualified and not just low paid goons, should have pointed out to you what was going on with the bowed sashes. A good window dealer would probably have sent out a service tech as soon as possible to de-glazed, properly shim the IG-units into the sash, and then re-glaze. I would have done this on the spot. I'm guessing the installers aren't real mechanics as leaving a bowed jamb is unacceptable.

I would be very surprised if Vista was still around 5-years from now.

[Windows on Washington]

Blended gas is becoming the norm because it is cheaper and it provide the same performance advantages of pure Krypton if the glass spacing is right.

Might be something behind that jamb side that is pushing it up a bit. Probably a bit of an oversight by the installer, but there is plenty of weatherstripping there and the airtightness of most windows is not based on a compression seal (i.e. forcing the sashes into the wall and each other). Previous windows did rely on that and those were the units that normally failed to stay tight over time.

See if you can locate the hump in the jamb and see if it it localized to one small area of if it is reflective of the wall (i.e. the stud is bowed).

Keep us posted.

What I can see does show a pretty clean interior caulking line.

[ajaye]

Again, I cannot thank you guys enough for your comments. To say I have been losing sleep over all this would be an understatement. Now that I have a clear understanding of what some of these things are I am a little bit more comfortable at least, so again I thank you.

I had used Vista in 2007-2008 for sort of a drop type budget window. I saw quite a bit of short comings in how their windows were designed and quickly replaced them with better manufacturers. None of what I'm seeing surprises me. Many manufacturers can make smaller windows without incident, however when the larger units are made, the problems quickly escalate.

The installers if qualified and not just low paid goons, should have pointed out to you what was going on with the bowed sashes. A good window dealer would probably have sent out a service tech as soon as possible to de-glazed, properly shim the IG-units into the sash, and then re-glaze. I would have done this on the spot. I'm guessing the installers aren't real mechanics as leaving a bowed jamb is unacceptable.

I would be very surprised if Vista was still around 5-years from now.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head for me. I'm a reasonable person with more experience and knowledge of a lot of construction/trade work than the average person. I just wanted someone to be upfront and honest with me. If a slider so large it is hard to make at that pricepoint without looking funny, just tell me so I can consider another option. If I had the intimate knowledge of the product that I expected the salesperson to have, I wouldn't need them in the first place. I also worked in B2B sales for 10 years, if you manage someone's expectations from the beginning and promise things you can actually deliver, you have little to worry about. It seems like more and more contractors and material suppliers are working based on the complete opposite of that sentiment.

As I continue to investigate, I have found that the installer is also the exclusive-rights supplier for Vista in my geographic region for many years now. From past permits, it appears they do a lot of rehab/flip/rental property stuff which also makes sense.

Blended gas is becoming the norm because it is cheaper and it provide the same performance advantages of pure Krypton if the glass spacing is right.

Might be something behind that jamb side that is pushing it up a bit. Probably a bit of an oversight by the installer, but there is plenty of weatherstripping there and the airtightness of most windows is not based on a compression seal (i.e. forcing the sashes into the wall and each other). Previous windows did rely on that and those were the units that normally failed to stay tight over time.

See if you can locate the hump in the jamb and see if it it localized to one small area of if it is reflective of the wall (i.e. the stud is bowed).

Keep us posted.

What I can see does show a pretty clean interior caulking line.

I have some more pictures I need to share of the slider but I want to try to get better ones to really show what I'm seeing. I'm trying to wait for a day when its a little cooler and less humid to open a giant hole in the wall for an hour or two...no such luck lately.

I agree, they left a very clean caulk line inside, at least on the openings where they didn't take out some chunks of finish-coat plaster...I knew that was coming though. The outside is just gunned on, they used BOSS 400 Colors so I'm hoping that it will at least function as intended. There is also the expectation of a certain level of cosmetically pleasing appearance, that was a driving factor for this purchase since the old windows' igu seals were bad and I went w/ an exterior color change (white to black). If I had to sell my house tomorrow, and someone even more anal than me is interested in my house but wants to know why the hell my windows are shaped so funny even though they are new, then where does that leave me?

Anyway I'm preaching to the choir, I know. Just been very difficult for me throughout this whole ordeal since no one knows what the hell I'm talking about in real life.

[ajaye]

I wanted to update my situation in case it may help someone else finding themselves in my position some day.

To those of you that replied, THANK YOU. You were absolutely correct about the sash issue being the lack of spacers at the top. It took the credit card company reversing the charge on 80% of the total cost of the job (I wrote a check for 20% down when the order was made); then Vista's QC person reached out to me and sent a helpful and competent service person today, he was here all day. He cut the glazing tape free across the top of the sash and wet glazed everything back in after placing the spacers, voila no more bowing driving me crazy. He was also asked to try to address the out-of-plumb frame of the slider while he was here even though they technically aren't supposed to address installation problems. What I found during this process:

1. The window is just over 4 feet high. The original installation only used 2 anchors in each jamb. He added a third anchor in each jamb and was able to get things pretty close to plumb. Two opposite corners are still a bit out but by 7:30 PM and due to the below things that will need addressed anyway, I sent him on his way since this wasn't his mess to begin with.

2. There were zero shims used despite Vistas literature clearly stating "Tighten the jamb adjusters and shim the window at all anchor points and where necessary to hold the unit secure while checking it for plumb, level, and square..."

3. No insulation around the frame AT ALL despite the fact that I PAID EXTRA for poly foam wrap. OK let's say I didn't pay extra, here's another excerpt from Vista's lit: "Loosely pack insulation around the window frame, on the interior, between the frame and the opening. Use of spray foam is acceptable as long as it meets AAMA 812 specifications. If gaps between the unit and the opening are less than 1/8" the unit may not require insulation. When this occurs Vista Window Company recommends an exterior and interior perimeter seal to create a dead air space." The space is like 1/2" at least, I can freaking look from in the house and see the back of the alum. capping. Not to mention I have a contract that says INCLUDES INSULATION ALL WINDOWS, this is besides the polyfoam wrap I paid extra for.

So basically Vista fixed what they were responsible for and some of what the clown installers screwed up but now I need to figure out compensation for the installation and how to proceed because those clowns will not be stepping foot in my home again. No wonder they fought so hard when I first raised the issues I did, they new they were about to get busted for screwing me. I feel bad for not going through with litigation because there is no public record of this for others to consider but at this point I'm confident I will be made whole again 100% whether it be financially or otherwise.

Thanks again, I probably would not have pushed the issue if not for your guys' feedback.

[Windows on Washington]

Glad you made some progress on things and got the issues somewhat resolved.

[ajaye]

Question:
Is it common practice to, instead of removing all the old built up caulking on a marble stool along the bottom of the old windows after you remove them, to leave it all and just install the replacement frame with the offset in the rough opening set back deeper inside the house then the prior windows were? Cause that's what these clowns did on this window. It took me all of 18 seconds to remove the old caulking once the trimquick was removed....what's worse, it looks like the very edge of the outer frame corners are brick-bound....and if the window had been installed closer to were the old windows were the slope of my exterior brick sill means this probably wouldn't have happened.

I smashed my phone in frustration over this the other day so I can't take pics at the moment, and a lot of it is impossible to take pics of anyway. Suffice it to say these guys boned me big time.

[ajaye]

Well its been raining pretty much all day and with the trim off I've been keeping an eye on the big window. So far, no signs of water in my wall at all so at least time is on my side while I continue my quest. Grasping at straws for something positive.

[ajaye]

Had a friend over last night that took a few pics for me of the caulking from where the old windows were set that was hiding under the frame. Also check out the one shim I found plopped under the meeting rail. why even bother with that thing.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B04Xrk ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B04Xrk ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B04Xrk ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B04Xrk ... sp=sharing