Disappointed

[Inquirer]

I had a guy come today who says all the right things and seemed very believable. Ended up being here a little under 3 hours. Recommended the Soft Lite Inperial LS. I have side by side double hungs in the dining room area and he is the first to suggest one big slider, a triple.
So 7 double hungs, 1 slider over the kitchen sink, 1 triple slider and 1 awning. Double pane, argon glass with super spacer. Asked for specs and he told me only 2 of them. U factor 27 and air .02. I believe he said coil wraps for capping if that sounds right. That was included. Started out at 11,010 then $100 per unit discount down to 10,010, then 30 day promotion down to 9,309, then optional discount down to 7,986. Every time I did not bite, he added some discount to lower it. Felt like buying a car to me. The last price might not be bad but I don't know. Don't find any bad reviews and comes across as someone who bends over backwards to please the customer and supposedly guarantees an excellent install. The fact of the matter is when he goes about the sales part like he did it makes me wonder if he is all smoke and mirrors. I was very disappointed as I was expecting a completely different experience.

[uncle eddie]

Did you know that car sales is one of the lowest margin industries that there is? Car salesmen make more on monthly bonuses for quality service surveys than they do on the commission of selling the vehicle because there just isn't much money in it. Why do I say that? Similar industry. Most consumers have no clue whatsoever about the cost of doing business for a home improvement contractor. They see a window at lowes, figure an hour or so of labor at $25 per hour, and there is the cost they should expect right? Now I realize that you weren't complaining about price, however that gives you some idea why a company that actually sells for a price that can sustain a business and make a dollar of profit might need to use a more polished sales process, and may also have more discounts. Some guys are shady no doubt, but unless they are real sleazeballs, I'd really look at the other factors involved. Here is what you said:

"The last price might not be bad but I don't know. Don't find any bad reviews and comes across as someone who bends over backwards to please the customer and supposedly guarantees an excellent install".

Now, I can tell you that end price is very fair on a goof product. If you do believe the things that you said above, it sounds like a good deal for you.

[masterext]

There is nothing wrong with a salesman offering discounts in order to get a sale and feed his family. It can be a creative way of beating the competition. Would an offense in the NFL announce what play they were going to use to the opposing defense? Of course not unless they wanted to lose.

What about when homeowenrs tell a contractor they received much lower pricing for the same product when they never did or get 10 bids to use as bargaining chips? Why is that ok?
People dont seem to mind when they can buy one whole pizza and get another half price on fridays..
Or what about a "today only" sale at an electronics store? Why are those discounts accepted? Its the same thing with windows, doors, clothing, or even food at your local supermarket.

At the end of the day, if you get a good window and a good installation at a price thats fair to both you and the contractor, its a home run or maybe a touchdown if i want to stick to my NFL theme.

[toddinmn]

I would consider the tactics used to be aggressive and I think the right thing was done by not buying, I would get some more bids.
I don't think we should be compared to the auto industry, it is more complex and the margins are not always that low. I don't think it should take 3 hours to explain the difference why a window is better than the one at Lowes. I think there is something wrong with starting out with a high price and then offering multiple other discounts as the pitch goes on. comparing this to an offense in the NFL is absurd to me.

[masterext]

I would consider the tactics used to be aggressive and I think the right thing was done by not buying, I would get some more bids.
I don't think we should be compared to the auto industry, it is more complex and the margins are not always that low. I don't think it should take 3 hours to explain the difference why a window is better than the one at Lowes. I think there is something wrong with starting out with a high price and then offering multiple other discounts as the pitch goes on. comparing this to an offense in the NFL is absurd to me.

The nfl analogy was meant to show how a company doesnt let another company know about their discounts.
Their is nothing sleazy about discounts. Although i agree that starting very high and then offering a bunch of discounts by lowering a price by a large margin is unethical. Some of the larger companies do engage in this but small discounts so you dont have to come back? Whats wrong with that?
If i have some credits or decide i can take a few hundred off so i dont have to drive back to a home thats a hour away, i will sometimes do it. Id love to know what kind of wizardry you engage in Todd that enables you to break all those sales records.

[Windows on Washington]

3 hours is a bit on the heavy side of a demo for time investment. I do know that I have easily spent 2 hours without even blinking depending on the size, scope, complexity, and number of client questions.

In terms of where you started vs. where you finished price wise is a bit of a spread, but not gratuitous. Most companies will run anywhere from 15-25% on a normal timeline with some sort of last incentive for a first visit price. You appear to be around that 25% mark so that is not at all out of normal.

Where we get the greasy sales process feel to it is when we are talking about 40 and 50% drops for so-called "marketing savings".

[Inquirer]

Thanks for the responses. I don't mind a person trying to make a living and support their family. I just didn't expect it to happen the way it did. Doesn't mean he is dishonest.


I will tell you a quote I got from another source who is presented as an honest and recommended company to do business with. I was surprised when he was tapping on my steel entrance door and feeling it and asked if it was steel or fiberglass.

Soft-Lite Elements Double pane $550.00 per window installed and he said he would give me the slider and awning at the same price which seems to be a good deal in itself. That is just installed and sealed, capping is not included.

He was giving me a price for Provia entrance and screen door as follows.

Provia Legacy steel door, white color, 36 X 80 Hardware in bright brass finish, Georgian lockset and Thumbturn Deadbolt for $1464.86

Provia England screen door 36 X 80 Superview 896 One-Lite with full screen $441.72

What are your thoughts on this pricing please? Is it too good? There is a home show coming up this week and he said the prices were discounted due to that.

[HomeSealed]

Where we get the greasy sales process feel to it is when we are talking about 40 and 50% drops for so-called "marketing savings".

Ding, ding, ding!

This is the bottom line imho.

[Inquirer]

This company that gave the really low quote is recommended by a site that claims to be there to educate people on the window buying process. When you click on the particular state, it lists different towns and or cities and clicking on every one recommends this same company for the whole state. I know at least one of the members on this forum knows the person because looking back in the blog posts there is an article written by or at least credited to that person. The site I am referring to is window dg. They are friends with and recommend this place as the best to buy in the state. The place does seem to have overall very good ratings. There are some negative reviews but you say that you can find negatives on any company if you look hard enough.

My question is this

If a window and door sales and installation company has a number of negative reviews(not hundreds) and they do what it takes to make it right would you say that is ok when they are willing to fix whatever happens?

[HomeSealed]

Inquirer, I contribute to that site as well as this one and others. Please do not however take that as an endorsement by me of other companies featured there. I am not saying that they are good or bad, I'm just saying that the fact that other companies featured there are in no way an endorsement from me. That being said, a good track record speaks volumes. If you find a company that has a good history, good reviews, and a premium product at a competitive price, you are likely in a good place... As far as negative reviews go, as stated earlier, everyone has something negative if you dig deep enough. Could be a competitor posting fake reviews, could be an unreasonable customer. You want to focus on a strong majority being positive as a good indicator.

[Inquirer]

Please understand that nothing was directed at you at all and I realize that you were not the one making the recommendation. I really appreciate all the responses to my questions. I have been burned a few times spread out over the years so I get a little overly cautious. I thought I took all necessary precautions when I hired the company to install these but it still ended up being a bad choice and I realize that I overlooked some things and made mistakes even though I researched beforehand.

I have been looking up every review I can find on this company and overall they have 140 reviews on Angies List. 123 A, 11 B, 2 C, 2D, 2F but reading through them it seems like they made every effort and then some. 4 star on Houzz and Home Advisor and 5 stars on Yelp. Some of the same negative reports posts were on more than one site and they address every issue and try to resolve it. Some have all good to say but only give a B. There were also some unreasonable ones. So, I don't know what is up with their seemingly too good to be true pricing but everything I see indicates they are respected and trustworthy and offer a lifetime labor and service warranty. so I guess his recommendation seems like a good one.

[masterext]

Some questions to ask yourself.
1) does the company offer a quality window?
2) is the general theme of their reviews good? Remember, there will always be a few customers who just enjoy giving bad reviews simply because they can. Look at the general theme. Even Apple has some bad reviews but we all know its a great product.
3) are they responsive to your questions.
Most of those other sites are simply lead generation sites so them saying a certain company is highly recommended doesnt really mean much. This site is a bit different in that regard.

[toddinmn]

I would consider the tactics used to be aggressive and I think the right thing was done by not buying, I would get some more bids.
I don't think we should be compared to the auto industry, it is more complex and the margins are not always that low. I don't think it should take 3 hours to explain the difference why a window is better than the one at Lowes. I think there is something wrong with starting out with a high price and then offering multiple other discounts as the pitch goes on. comparing this to an offense in the NFL is absurd to me.

The nfl analogy was meant to show how a company doesnt let another company know about their discounts.
Their is nothing sleazy about discounts. Although i agree that starting very high and then offering a bunch of discounts by lowering a price by a large margin is unethical. Some of the larger companies do engage in this but small discounts so you dont have to come back? Whats wrong with that?
If i have some credits or decide i can take a few hundred off so i dont have to drive back to a home thats a hour away, i will sometimes do it. Id love to know what kind of wizardry you engage in Todd that enables you to break all those sales records.

I said the nfl analogy was absurd to me,not because I didn't understand it but mostly I Didn't think it was a good one.
Discounts are fine, but I don't like them being implemented if the customer is not ready to sign, and then another discount offered again once they say no even if the discounts are small.There is no need to come back if they don't sign that day, at least with me .
Never claimed to break any records and actually I'm down 20.9% this year compared to last.
My methods are to leave the an owner with one competitive bid. I never push to close a deal. I usually encougage them to get other bids with similar products and often recommend other companies or brands. I may price match a competitor but I would request to see there bid. I have never came down 25% on a bid nor would I and rarely would I have to win. I have taken 3 hours at a sell before, but usually is helping a customer understand, going over options, bullshitting, and measuring the Windows, but not trying to push the sell, offering discount ect.

[Inquirer]

We had communicated before and I also mentioned after RiteWindow left that I was very happy with the way they conducted themselves. I said they have upfront pricing and no games. So it gave him a hint as to how I liked things to go.

After me he had another appointment so I emailed him and told him that he mentioned when he was at the dealer the salesman came back with sticker price and $1000 payment. He told the salesman no way so when the salesman came back with the lower price he said now if I had taken the other price I would not have got that. I told him it was the same with me if I took his first price. He said no, no matter what the price was when you signed I would have given you the better price. Does that mean the price below the one above it or the final price? It does not make sense to me because why would you say a higher price and if I sign you say never mind, I am going to give you a much better price. That is sending a message to my way of thinking.

[Inquirer]

He also said that all companies use subcontractors. He said they all say they don't but the do.