Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#31 Post by Windows on Washington »

How much do you really want those other options? There is a big, big, big spread between the quality of the two windows in the eyes of most professionals.

netman63129
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#32 Post by netman63129 »

Yes, I really want shades because animals and children tend to wreak havoc with unprotected shades. I also don't like looking through screens and it is a pain to remove them all so the Rol-Screen option is very handy, especially on casement windows where the screen is even more intrusive.

I've looked over both companies and the only significant quality difference that I can see is that Pella is not 100% extruded aluminum. Most everything else is of similar quality including the install process, the hardware, the glass, and the interior finish.

If Pella would provide the EnduraClad Plus and a 20 year warranty, they would be identical in my eyes, but if you know something that I don't, then please enlighten me? Just saying that there is a "big, big, big, spread in quality" without any underlying facts doesn't really help me :-p

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#33 Post by Windows on Washington »

Marvin does have a roll away screen option on their casement line up.

Some would argue, those that have handled both products, that there are more qualitative differences than just the thickness and fabrication type of the cladding.

With regards to the specifics Mike, I will defer back to the other posters on the forums. Our experiences are anecdotal and you may, in fact, have a great experience. The assessment and ranking is nearly universal among the pros that I know...and it isn't just because folks want to like Marvin.

There were a few projects on our end of things that literally felt like an episode of Benny Hill though with regards to the products.

netman63129
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#34 Post by netman63129 »

Yes, Marvin does have roll-screens but they cannot be installed with shades so it is one or the other, therefore they effectively have no roll-screens for my application. It should also be noted that Marvin roll-screens are horizontal and not vertical. The one that I saw in the showroom did not operate correctly and the dealer recommended not using them because of problems. So you see, Marvin is not necessarily the best at everything. The same can be said regarding shades between the glass. It seems that Pella has mastered this feature, which is improved again with the new Lifestyle line, and I cannot find another manufacturer that even comes close.

In addition, it seems that every manufacturer has many negative reviews. I can search on any company and find a myriad of dissatisfied customers. However, digging deeper, most of the problems revolve around poor installation and not so much the quality of the windows, unless those windows are 20+ years old, when all manufacturers had quality issues. Companies and manufacturing processes do improve over time and just because a particular company was last in quality two decades ago does not mean that they cannot be first today. This is why I am asking for experiences <10 years old.

Again, if your recent experience is different, I would like to learn more details? For example, were your issues related to the installation or the quality of the windows? Saying the experience was like, "an episode of Benny Hill" doesn't give me anything factual to go on, although I love Benny Hill ;-)

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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#35 Post by Windows on Washington »

You are correct that just about any manufacturer of any volume will have some documented issues. In today's age of the internet reviewers, it is tough to sort through the outrage to see what is justified.

Most of Pella's issues are not just installation related when you look at the larger production issues that they had over the years. I will be happy to share with you picture of my 15 year old windows when I am back in that area in 2 weeks if you want to wait until then. Is the product that is being produced today probably better...sure. That said, the fact that each lower sash that is rotting out of my windows is not due to an installation defect.

The Benny Hill reference would be more analogous if you had ordered a remake of a product that was incorrectly produced the first time and someone would make it incorrectly again...4 more times. That kind of analogy.

If they have the options that you want and you are comfortable with the installer...I say go for it. Its not my aim to convince you otherwise. The question was about the two products and I merely stated what my assessment was of the pros that I know when it comes to that specific comparison. I have toured both factories and they are both well run.

netman63129
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#36 Post by netman63129 »

Well the good news is that if the sashes do rot out, they now have a lifetime warranty. In fact, as I stated above, everything on a Pella Window now has a lifetime warranty except the finish, which is 2 years, hence my original question...why? By comparison, the Marvin warranty is 5-20 years, depending on the issue.

I plan on remaining at my residence for decades, so the lifetime warranty is appealing to me. My primary concern is the quality of the Pella exterior finish. Perhaps they want buyers to upgrade to the EnduraClad Plus, which also has a 20 year warranty, but it is expensive and I have been unable to find anyone that has upgraded for comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I like Marvin, but they don't have all the features that I want and the differences in construction seem minimal, other than the Kynar finish and a bit more extruded aluminum. I am not sure about everywhere else, but my Marvin dealer wants to nickel and dime me on every little thing. For example, they contract out a painter to finish the interior trim work around the windows and doors, or they say that I can do it myself and save money. True, but their competitors have no such charge. They also don't cover up nail holes in the interior trim work. I have to putty, sand, and finish the work myself. I can do it but I prefer to have everything completed for the money that I am spending.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#37 Post by HomeSealed »

netman63129 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:31 am Well the good news is that if the sashes do rot out, they now have a lifetime warranty. In fact, as I stated above, everything on a Pella Window now has a lifetime warranty except the finish, which is 2 years, hence my original question...why? By comparison, the Marvin warranty is 5-20 years, depending on the issue.
Read the warranty a bit closer netman. Wood rot due to condensation is not covered, and this is THE cause of failure on most wood windows (in conjunction with poor maintenance). This extends to the fatal design flaw which is glossed over here IMO, and that is the roll formed cladding on the sashes. Marvin is not the only manufacturer that uses extruded aluminum there, MOST do. The reason is because the cladding condensates on the backside and the wood soaks it up like a sponge. The sashes literally rot from inside out. Pella has a well known name and typically comes in at a lower cost than Marvin, they also have some cool and unique features. If they would correct some of the flaws that contribute to MANY failures/replacements in the 10-15 year range, and putting them on par with economy grade wood windows in that regard, they would probably get more love from professionals in the know.
Pella is one of the most common windows that we replace these days, especially in newer housing stock. Just yesterday I was in a home where there were a couple casements that rotted through to the point that the lower rail (the bottom piece of the sash) actually fell off.

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Re:

#38 Post by netman63129 »

HomeSealed wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:31 am Pella is one of the most common windows that we replace these days, especially in newer housing stock. Just yesterday I was in a home where there were a couple casements that rotted through to the point that the lower rail (the bottom piece of the sash) actually fell off.
I am curious how old were these windows?
Guy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:16 pm The water leaking issue has been changed awhile back. Pella used to put their glass stops on the outside of the sash making it vulnerable to water penetration. They have since changed this to the inside to make this issue go away.
This is an earlier post which says that Pella has fixed the design flaw that caused the rotting sash issue. Also, the exact warranty text is...

"Damage caused by high in-home humidity (condensation, frost and mold)."

I suppose that the dealer could argue the source of the condensation as being high humidity in the home but this is certainly debatable by the homeowner who could prove otherwise.

Thanks,

Mike

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#39 Post by Windows on Washington »

Most of the ones that we see rotting out are 10-15 years old in our cases. We just recently ran out and did a courtesy service to band-aid exactly what HomeSealed mentioned. Customer was under contract, opened their casement for the first time in the Spring, Glass nearly fell out and was wedge against the house.

We pushed it back in place from the exterior, closed the window, removed the handle, and screwed the sash close for the next 4 weeks while product was being produced.

I want to say that their windows were about 12 years old.

Simple fact is that most people live in their home for about an average of 7 years...and manufacturers know that. At 12-15 years, it is, most times, the next guys problem. What does the warranty say about transfer-ability?

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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#40 Post by netman63129 »

The transferability of the warranty is an interesting point. It probably won't apply to me but it is a potential red flag since Pella is non-transferable and Marvin and Anderson is transferable.

As I noted above, consumer complaints regarding rotted sashes are plentiful for Pella, Marvin, and Anderson. No manufacturer is immune.

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Double Hung
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#41 Post by Double Hung »

"they now have a lifetime warranty."

There is no term in the entire history of the replacement window industry that is more misunderstood than "Lifetime Warranty".

netman63129
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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#42 Post by netman63129 »

Double Hung wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:09 am "they now have a lifetime warranty."

There is no term in the entire history of the replacement window industry that is more misunderstood than "Lifetime Warranty".
The new term is "Limited Lifetime Warranty" which is a bit of an oxymoron ;-)

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Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#43 Post by tru_blue »

I just HAD to look into this since I enjoy a good challenge. And I rarely get on this forum these days. Over the years I've sometimes been motivated to clarify confusion about Andersen, Pella, Marvin, various vinyls, and even plain exterior storm windows! Here's what I came up with on Pella's.

First, with warranties. Pella's "limited" lifetime warranty for wood windows covers the glass, the cladding, and the wood, and is transferable. I think Pella switched to a limited lifetime warranty only a year or two ago. Many vinyl window manufactures have limited lifetime warranties, but very few wood window manufacturers have them. "Limited" essentially means lifetime for the original owner, and transferrable, but not "lifetime" for subsequent owners.

- Glass (limited lifetime) is provided by Cardinal, with their "Endur" spacer. Last I heard from Cardinal their seal failure rate for their similar systems were 1/5th of 1 per cent over 20 years. The warranty is transferrable but not for lifetime (ten years).
- Cladding (limited lifetime) covers peeling & cracking, and is transferrable but not for lifetime (ten years). Fade resistance is covered for two years, which can be an issue with dark colors such as black, but a non-issue for lighter colors. All finishes fade at various degrees so it's not a big deal for me, but it's an issue for some.
- Wood (limited lifetime) covers wood rot and is transferrable but not for lifetime (ten years). Excluded is damage caused by high in-home humidity (not exterior humidity), which I assume means stains caused by excessive in-home humidity. Wood rot cause by exterior moisture would presumably be covered.
- Labor is included in their warranty for two years. That's two years more than any other wood window manufacturer that I'm aware of (except Andersen Renewal, which isn't quite wood). Usually it's up to a local dealer to decide if they want to provide free service, if any at all. After two years there is a service charge to visit a home. Many wood window manufacturers do not make in-home service available.

Pella offers some window lines with an extruded aluminum frame and rolled aluminum sash (e.g., Lifestyle Series). They also offer some window lines with all extruded sash and frame (e.g., Architect Series Reserve).

It's interesting that you are comparing Marvin and Pella. Those are the two brands I have put into my home (which makes a nice test facility)! :) I haven't had an issue with either one in my home. Over the years I've replaced both of them in other homes though. But both have made numerous and significant improvements, especially in energy efficiency, glass technology, and longevity. Either one will serve you well! 8)

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Re: Re:

#44 Post by HomeSealed »

netman63129 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 pm
HomeSealed wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:31 am Pella is one of the most common windows that we replace these days, especially in newer housing stock. Just yesterday I was in a home where there were a couple casements that rotted through to the point that the lower rail (the bottom piece of the sash) actually fell off.
I am curious how old were these windows?
2006
netman63129 wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 pm I suppose that the dealer could argue the source of the condensation as being high humidity in the home but this is certainly debatable by the homeowner who could prove otherwise.

Good luck with that. Pella will be out of business in quick order if they start honoring these wood rot claims. How do you propose to prove after 10 years and wood rot exists that the RH in your home was appropriate for that entire time? That the windows were not covered by heavy window treatments thereby making the window colder and lowering the threshold for "high humidity" as it would be defined as high enough to cause condensation. In my opinion, this warranty is a farce, it is vaguely written, and it would be nearly impossible for a homeowner to prove their case. If Pella had a history of taking care of folks based on the "spirit" of the issue, I'd imagine that there would be fewer class action lawsuits. They are not the only manufacturer to have that of course, and its fair to say that most manufacturer may try to get off on technicalities. That said, my only point here is that aspect of the warranty is not likely worth more than the paper that its written on, and I'd actually compare it to "energy savings guarantees" that used to be widely promoted by manufacturers and dealers, but were unrealistic and nearly impossible to disprove due to similar vague language and hoops to jump through. If a rotted window has ANY sign of water damage to the interior side, it will most certainly be diagnosed as interior moisture damage, and even if the damage is from the exterior under the clad sash, I'd expect that to be diagnosed the same, and which is very possible.

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