Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

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scottland7
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:28 pm

Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#1 Post by scottland7 »

I am new to the forum, but have done some reading of different posts. Please indulge me.

I am planning to replace 9 double hung windows and replace a set of in-swing french doors with a french slider. We have a traditional looking home in an historic area and would like the curb appeal of windows that look like old authentic wood windows from the street but offer the low maintenance and thermal efficiency of the newer technologies. We are considering Pella with 1-1/4" integral light technoloy (external grids) and Marvin Ultimate Inserts with 1-1/8" external grid.

Some questions:

1. What spacer system does each use in their respective products? Their brochures do not provide that info. If different, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each spacer system?

2. How important is the distinction between Marvin's extruded aluminum
frame and sash system vs. Pella's extruded frame and rolled form sash system? Some have expressed concern about different rates of fading with the Pella because of the different types of aluminum cladding on the frame (extruded) vs. the sash (rolled form).

3. Does Pella use the block and tackle system? I know Marvin does. Is this the "best" and most reliable system?

4. Marvin uses the Krylon (sp?) finish standard on all their inserts. Pella uses only a baked on finish unless you upgrade to the Enduraclad Plus finish which would then make it equal to the Marvin standard finish. How much should I be concerned about fading (Translation: When will I have to paint again??). Color will be tan and about half the windows will get direct sun for 4-5 hours during the day.

We do not want vinyl, but would be interested in any other suggestions or recommendations you may have.

Guy--How does the Pella Impervia compare from a price point perspective to the aluminum clad Pella model. I did not know it existed when we first spoke with the Pella folks.

Can anyone recommend a good french sliding door, preferably with a fiberglass exterior and a wood interior?

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise.

WIWindow
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 8:31 am

Marvin Infinity

#2 Post by WIWindow »

Scottland- Check out the Marvin Infinity windows. Fiberglass. Custom sizes. Excellent window!!!!!!!! Similar to the Pella Impervia.

Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#3 Post by Dean S »

1. Both Pella and Marvin buy glass from Cardinal (www.cardinalcorp.com). Click on "Products" and see the IG with XL Edge spacer.

Marvin buys the sealed unit from Cardinal while I'm pretty sure Pella puts the IG units together in-house. I don't know what spacer system Pella uses but I know that they inject the argon while Marvin's IG units are put together in an argon-filled chamber for a better fill rate.

2. Marvin has an extruded aluminum exterior with a Kynar finish while Pella uses roll-form with a polyester finish. Yes, I've seen it myself where the Pella sash fades faster than the frames.

3. Pella recently changed their double hung. I don't know if they're using a block and tackle system.

4. Again, the Pella standard finish will fade. They cannot recieve the same AAMA rating as Marvin on their upgraded finish because they use roll-form.

The Pella roll-form on the French Sliders is liable to dent if you have children or dogs.

The Integrity Sliding French Door has a paintable fiberglass exterior but only comes in standard sizes.

scottland7
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:28 pm

#4 Post by scottland7 »

Thanks. Dean S, for your reply. Just the start to the discussion I was looking for.

Does the Marvin Intergrity sliding french door come in pre-finished exterior colors, or must you paint? Does it include wood interior for staining?

Any other suggested brands for replacement windows, anyone? Again, I'm not interested in vinyl and would prefer a national brand. I would also prefer a "unit"/insert replacement as opposed to just sash replacement with compression jams.

Looking forward to hearing responses from the Pella folks as well (Guy? RC? Ya out there?).

Thanks.

Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#5 Post by Dean S »

Integrity windows come in only prefinished white and Pebble Gray but can be painted to match your colors. I believe you can request a free brochure at www.integritywindows.com. The doors come only in standard sizes which may or may not be a problem. They have a wood interior and don't offer staining but they can come primed if you request it. Integrity is a reasonably priced product mainly marketed to builders. It is a quality product with fewer options and they don't make insert windows.

You can get a free Marvin brochure at www.marvin.com.

Eagle, Loewen and Kolbe and Kolbe make good products. Your installer is very important too, about as important as getting a quality window.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#6 Post by Guy »

Haven't had much time to sleep let alone post on the board. Been working seven days a week 12 - 14 hour days. It's getting old fast. But you have to go with the flow!!

Here's my take on the Pella vs Marvin deal. Hands down they are both great choices. Yes Pella still uses the Block and Tackle balance system along with Andersen. Just a point of interest about Pella's exterior finish. Their frames exterior is an extruded metal the same as Marvins. The only Roll Formed parts are on the sashes. Pella has beefed up the backing of the panning by adding more wood behind it. Marvin can use less wood behind their extruded metal frame. Deans comment on the AAMA rating of Marvin to Pella is incorrect. No disrespect to Dean in any way but they both have the same rating. Pella & Marvin both carry the AAMA 2605 standards. The finish on aluminum is the same if it's extruded or roll formed. Metal is metal and the finish applies the same on each. In order to get the Kymar 500 finish you do need to get the Enduraclad plus finish. It sounds like it will become a standard feature soon. To be honest all the hype between the two is over inflated. They both have good and bad points. Not many bad in either case.
Now lets talk fiberglass. Pella's Impervia is hands down the strongest window on the market today. Their Duracast material is the toughest product in the industry. You can paint either side any color you want. Sounds like they will have numerous colors to choose from soon. The Impervia window is only being sold by exclusive dealers. The Pella stores do not have the rights to this window at all. So finding a dealer may be a bit difficult in some areas. As for sliding doors I'll say it over and over again. I think Pellas slider is the best on the market today. It moves so nice across the track with one finger. I really think they work great!!

As for glass products Cardinal couldn't keep up with Marvin in the day. So they built a plant up North to accomodate them. So Marvin pretty much has it's own plant making glass for them. Pella uses the same glass and makes most of it in house. The glass standards are pretty much equal any way you look at it. Bottom line is what you like and how much it's going to set you back. In either case you'll be getting a good window. Hope this helps.

Guy

WIWindow
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 8:31 am

Impervia/Infinity

#7 Post by WIWindow »

Hi Guy- Get workin and quit posting lol. What's the price difference between the Impervia and Infinity??? any comments between the two??

Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#8 Post by Dean S »

Guy,

According to my rep at Marvin, roll-form cannot get the 2605 rating. Either they have the 2605 rating on the frame and a lower rating on the sash or my source in the architectural department is wrong. I couldn't find the information on the AAMA website.

Dean

RC
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:28 pm

#9 Post by RC »

Dean S wrote:Guy,

According to my rep at Marvin, roll-form cannot get the 2605 rating. Either they have the 2605 rating on the frame and a lower rating on the sash or my source in the architectural department is wrong. I couldn't find the information on the AAMA website.

Dean
The specs for 2605 don't seem to mention the type of substrate (roll form or extruded). I assume aluminum is aluminum, and can be painted with a product that will pass the tests. I know you have to pay more for the Kynar paint on a Pella window as an "option"

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#10 Post by Guy »

AAMA standards are based off everything as a whole entity. They can't just give one rating to the frame and another to the sash. I'll have to find out who your rep is and Pimp Slap him since I'm closer to him than you.(JK) I have also found out Pella's roll formed sash panels use a thicker material than any extruded frame parts. But if you think about it. Anything you would coat with paint would go through the same process. It's all about how the metal is prepped and then coated in the factory. All in all they are all pretty much the same. It just gives everyone something to argue about. Now with Andersen aquiring Eagle the game should really get interesting!!

Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#11 Post by Dean S »

The Marvin rep didn't say that you can have two different ratings for the same window. That was my idea, just throwing it out there as a possibility. A hare-brained possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.

It does make sense that roll-form wouldn't get the same rating because it is bended after the finish is applied. I see 2605 on the Pella website so it could be true. But I'm not coming around. I still don't like Pella's windows. :D

But if I put a smiley after I say that you won't get upset, right?

scottland7
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:28 pm

#12 Post by scottland7 »

Dean S--

What do you not like about the Pella window, aside from the fact that it is not made by Marvin? If nothing else, I believe it is a nice looking window with the mitered corner cladding and the interior wood trim with pre-finishing as an option.

Pella seems to be working hard to develop product options that are unique and desireable. I wish there were less controversy and less risk going with Pella. (Their products were just re-designed and are, therefore, unproven.)

Marvin, on the other hand, seems to make a solid product, but not as aesthetically pleasing IMHO as the Pella.

Hmmmm.....what to do?

Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#13 Post by Dean S »

I will agree that because I sell Marvin I'm biased toward that product. I do think it's the best window on the market. I'm not an equal-opportunity basher; I have previously posted that I think Loewen, Kolbe and Eagle make great products.

That said, I think Pella does their customers a great disservice by staying with roll-form on the sash. Moisture gets behind the cladding and the wood rot is undetectable until the sash starts falling apart. I've seen it on older Marvin windows from before they switched to extruded. I go to customers' homes and see this problem with Pella all the time, not to mention chalking, fading and denting on the sash while the frame stays in good shape. Even builders' grade windows like Lincoln and Windsor have switched to extruded.

There are other problems with Pella. They charge $80 for a visit to the home to look at warrantee issues and tend to refuse to make repairs. The hardware on the casement is sub par. See FenEx's comments on the Pro-Line window, an industry joke. Their dealers are upset about the windows being cheaper at Lowe's. The operating panel on their patio door is on the outside which means you have to open the screen and let the bugs in before closing the door. In summary, I don't like the company and don't like their products. :D :D

RC
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:28 pm

#14 Post by RC »

Dean S wrote:I will agree that because I sell Marvin I'm biased toward that product. I do think it's the best window on the market. I'm not an equal-opportunity basher; I have previously posted that I think Loewen, Kolbe and Eagle make great products.

That said, I think Pella does their customers a great disservice by staying with roll-form on the sash. Moisture gets behind the cladding and the wood rot is undetectable until the sash starts falling apart. I've seen it on older Marvin windows from before they switched to extruded. I go to customers' homes and see this problem with Pella all the time, not to mention chalking, fading and denting on the sash while the frame stays in good shape. Even builders' grade windows like Lincoln and Windsor have switched to extruded.

There are other problems with Pella. They charge $80 for a visit to the home to look at warrantee issues and tend to refuse to make repairs. The hardware on the casement is sub par. See FenEx's comments on the Pro-Line window, an industry joke. Their dealers are upset about the windows being cheaper at Lowe's. The operating panel on their patio door is on the outside which means you have to open the screen and let the bugs in before closing the door. In summary, I don't like the company and don't like their products. :D :D

1) $80 charge for warranty inspection? News to me, the Pella guys always come here for free. Where did you get this info?

2) So the way aluminum is extruded or rolled affects moisture collecting? Very odd comment. Where is your data? Incidence? Time frame? Marvin has a history of rot, but I really doubt it is totally related to the way the aluminum is formed as opposed to the way wood is (or is not) treated and the way the aluminum is sealed.

3) Data of fading? Time frame? Pella is an old company, paints have improved. What is the fading of 1950s Marvin windows versus today?

4) Bad hardware on Pella casements? No way! Thats the thing that sold me on the Architecture series over Marvin. Stainless steel, the retracting hooks are amazing, no spikey protruding things on the sash like Marvin has. Pella wins on hardware, no doubt.

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Win-admin
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#15 Post by Win-admin »

Dean S,

I think all appreciate your professional input and expertise; however you have made some rather strong comments concerning a large and prominent manufacturer. We can appreciate pointing out engineering deficiencies, and product line problems, but your post is more expansive than just that;
There are other problems with Pella. They charge $80 for a visit to the home to look at warrantee issues and tend to refuse to make repairs. The hardware on the casement is sub par. See FenEx's comments on the Pro-Line window, an industry joke. Their dealers are upset about the windows being cheaper at Lowe's. The operating panel on their patio door is on the outside which means you have to open the screen and let the bugs in before closing the door. In summary, I don't like the company and don't like their products.
In fairness to Pella can you provide data, or specific experiences to bolster what your saying.

In fairness to our readers, is there a Pella representative who is involved in the design and engineering of the Pella product line that could participate and present their side of the story?

Win-Admin

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