Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

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Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#16 Post by Dean S »

Apparently the smileys don't work. :(

Tim, I'll try to back up my statements and where they came from while responding to RC.

1. I have heard from three different customers in three different suburban areas of Chicago that there is a charge for a warrantee inspection and two of the three told me that the charge is $80. I have sold two of these customers Marvin products. The customers are told by Pella that the charge will be refunded if the problem is covered by the warrantee or applied to the labor charge if Pella does a repair. Call Pella and ask their policy if you'd like. I can probably get a testimonial from one of my customers if it gets that far.

2. The debate between roll-form and extruded on this site has been extensive. At least two people in previous posts have said that moisture gets behind the aluminum through the seams. It expands when it freezes which makes a larger opening. More and more moisture gets behind the aluminum until the wood rots. I've seen windows that are literally falling apart because of this phenomenon. Pella, Marvin (when they used roll-form) and others are not immune. I have not seen this happen with windows made from extruded aluminum. This has been debated and discussed extensively on this site and just repeated by me in this instance. While some posters on this site say the aluminum thickness doesn't matter, several companies that make mid-grade windows have switched to extruded. Why did they bother if it doesn't matter?

3. I have data on fading rates of Polyester finishes vs. Kynar but don't have any ratings from Pella's finishes of years past. I do, however, have a blown-up photo of a 5 year-old Pella window with extensive chalking and fading and 10 year-old Marvin windows in the same townhome development with no noticable fading. Come to Oak Brook Colony in Oak Brook, Illinois and I'll show you. RC, I don't have any data on paint finishes from the 1950's because I don't think there was cladding back then.

4. While I like the look of Pella's folding handle, I was speaking more about the operation. I've had the windows side-by side and saw that Marvin's operation is smoother and seemed sturdier. That was opinion-based and I'll try to get some data for you. I know it takes 12 1/2 turns to open a Marvin casement. They make it that way so the mechanisms don't strip.

Tim, you also highlighted other items that were on my post that I learned from this site. FenEx has discussed the problems with the Pro-Line. Many others have pointed out that Pella windows are cheaper at Lowe's which has angered Pella dealers. The operation of the patio door is common knowledge: I think having the screen on the inside is backwards while other people prefer it that way.

I didn't mean to offend. After this string runs its course I won't mention the P-word again.

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#17 Post by FenEx »

Well done Dean. I am not exactly sure why you were chosen to be the one to "back-up" your information in the first place. Many posts here are completely without any foundation. For the record, I have been to Marvin's plant in Warroad, MN.... and find their products to be superior to Pella's as well. Nobody hurt Pella but Pella. They sacrificed their once great reputation for low-end mass marketing... period. This doesn't mean that they still don't produce some great higher-end products... but I do feel it does mean that the name itself has been greatly diminished and should no longer be synonimous with quality by default. It just isn't so.

FenEx

Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#18 Post by Dean S »

Fenex,

Thanks for the backup. You do a great job on this site but people will take you more seriously if you use the smileys. :D

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#19 Post by Guy »

I'm not offended at all by the hard feelings Pella has created over the past couple years. FenX and I have discussed Pellas downfall many times. I base all my knowledge off todays product line. Not anything made ten or five years ago. I feel Pella has come to the plate to make their bad image in certain areas better. It would be the same thing bashing Marvin for their bad windows in years past that are falling apart to this day. I will tell you one thing I can back to the bank. I replace more Marvin windows weekly than anything. I don't hold it against them as I know things aren't the same. Some of your comments are dealing with older products.

The water leaking issue has been changed awhile back. Pella used to put their glass stops on the outside of the sash making it vulnerable to water penetration. They have since changed this to the inside to make this issue go away.

The fee for warranty issues is a great idea and every manufacturer should do the same thing. Pella has really been cracking down on poorly installed windows. As a matter of fact everyone is tired of taking the blame for poor installation. The manufacturer ends up giving customers new windows because it's cheaper than litigation. It's not that they are giving in or taking the blame. They just find it a cheaper and easier way to move on without attorneys and court costs

Your comment on roll formed panels being bent is also untrue. There isn't any metal fabricator out there today that would bend or brake any pre-finished material. It's always bent first and then finished. No matter what coating was used it would crack all over. Fading is covered under warranty and is usually related to a dark color with a Southern exposure. It will usually happen to any of them.

Pella made the bed they sleep in. They have now tried to make it a better place to sleep. It's true they must live with some past bad dreams, but this is America where we all get another chance. It's up to us as business owners, installers and customers to use these types of forums as a tool to educate others and assist them in the best choice possible. We all have products that piss us off or make us mad. You have every right in the world to carry a grudge and shake the ugly stick. I do it every day when I hear the word Milgard or Phillips. I'll beat the ugly stick every time I hear them. I just try and stay as professional as I can on these sights. This is why we are here and why Tim has such a great following. As long as we can back up our issues with facts and be honest it's cool by me!!!

Hey FenX....Schuco is JUNK!!! (HA)

RC
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:28 pm

#20 Post by RC »

I'm not so sure about the painting before or after rolling, Guy. Seamless gutters are pre-finished before rolling, the "stock" Pella material may be that way too, unless it is an odd custom color. I'm pretty sure they spray on the optional Kynar paint after forming, whether it is roll formed or extruded. You bring up a good point about Milgard. Last year this time many here were raving about that company, now its sure thought of badly. Amazing how fast things can change.

Dean S
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:36 am

#21 Post by Dean S »

I learned that Pella paints the aluminum before it's bent on this site. If it weren't possible to bend painted aluminum none of us would be able to cap the exteriors.

Fading doesn't happen to "any of them." Marvin's, Loewen's and Kolbe's fade at a much slower rate than any manufacturer that doesn't use Kynar. As I mentioned before, there are 10 year-old Marvin windows in a development that look brand new while other younger windows in the same place look horrible.

So the fading is covered by the warrantee. Great, I have to spend $80 to have someone come out and assess the fading and let me know if it's covered.

Guy, thanks for the information on the moisture prevention. I didn't know they changed it. But you and RC have said that Pella's paint finish has improved. Please let me know what's changed in the past five years or so.

JScott
Posts: 508
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:06 pm
Location: Kentucky

#22 Post by JScott »

Pella states in their warranty that they "may charge" an inspection fee and I believe it also states the fee may be refundable. It has been several months since I reviewed their warranty. Homeowners have indicated to us that they require that payment up front by credit card and other homeowners have indicated that when they had their builder call Pella that this was not mentioned at all and they were johnny on the spot.

I have thought of this also as I go out to a job to find out the problem is simply that the painters have not allowed the units to dry before closing and they stick or some Einstein painter put the latches on backwards or reversed the latches( yes I admit I am actively painter bashing in this post-sue me- we all have had those calls) maybe Pella has figured a way to avoid burning gas to tell a homeowner that their painter is the culprit( take a large note that this is a praise for Pella in their business activity).

Everyone have a great day and kick a door, not a window.

RC
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:28 pm

#23 Post by RC »

When I wrote into Pella corporate and asked about the painting before/after roll they asked "what color". Evidently the most popular colors (E.G. white) are pre-finished while others are sprayed after forming. Kynar is sprayed after forming.

RC
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 5:28 pm

#24 Post by RC »

Dean S wrote:you and RC have said that Pella's paint finish has improved. Please let me know what's changed in the past five years or so.
From what I've read the current "standard" Enduraclad paint was introduced in late 1998, so products with that paint were not in homes until 1999 or later. Are Pella windows you've seen fading that young? The Enduraclad Plus (Kynar) is a more recent offering.

Guy
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:41 pm
Location: Minnesota

#25 Post by Guy »

Well I don't know if Pella has a magic wand but Pre-painting or coating anything before roll forming or braking as kind of nuts. My stint in the trade took me through the commercial side of doors and windows in the 80's & 90's. I roll formed hollow metal doors and frames. I also used a brake to bend the material. We're talking about metal over 1/16" thick! Not pop can material we use on siding or wrapping. Plus the wrap I use is PVC coated. Much different and flexible. There is more stretching of the material when it's thicker. So instead of all this pleading and craziness. I'm setting up a trip to Pella Iowa with my sales rep. I'm touring the plant and going through everything we've discussed. I get to sit down with the big players and tell them all these issues we discuss on a daily basis. Quite similar to FenX and the Schuco gang. Wanna come along Fen, it would be one heck of a fun and informational trip. I'll get Oberon and W4U and we'll have the 4 some for golf and beverages when not on duty!!!! Think about it!!! This way we can have the information first hand.

Guy

Window4U (IL)
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois

#26 Post by Window4U (IL) »

Sure, I'll go in a heartbeat. I love field trips......Just tell me when!

FenEx
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Illinois

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#27 Post by FenEx »

Outstanding idea Guy. I am moving to Chicago at the end of the month. I would be very interested to see Pella's operation and add it to my list of plant tours. It might even make me feel better about their more recent changes. Just don't get mad at me if I "accicentally" trip on the extension cord inadvertantly unpluggling the Proline machinery. Set it up.

atlr
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:43 pm

#28 Post by atlr »

Guy, did you end up visiting Pella, Iowa 2 years ago and write a description of your trip? (I have searched as best I could and didn't find one.) Forum conversations are a snapshot in time that also have a quality of currency when one reads them for the first time. What happened next?

Anyway, I am considering the Pella Precision Fit. A recommendation I have inferred from reading opinions here is to get the EnduraClad Plus exterior finish option to reduce unequal fading of the sash and frame finishes.

tru_blue
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:02 am

Fading

#29 Post by tru_blue »

atlr wrote:A recommendation I have inferred from reading opinions here is to get the EnduraClad Plus exterior finish option to reduce unequal fading of the sash and frame finishes.
I wouldn't bother spending the extra $ getting the "Plus" finish. In the almost 30 years I've been handling windows I don't even know of anyone who has ever ordered it. There are two issues that you've inadvertently brought up - fading and "unequal fading." All clad windows will fade. Lighter colors are pretty much a non issue such as white or beige colors, but darker colors, especially black or brown, would be more noticeable. Since manufacturers that use rolled aluminum on the sash and extruded on the frame potentially use a different paint finish on each (notice I said "potentially" - you can order it from Pella both ways), years ago they would potentially fade at different rates. As it became apparent that they did indeed have different fading properties, manufacturers have supposedly changed their paint formulas so that they wear and fade evenly. So uneven fading, at least in Pella's case, is no longer much of an issue. However, if you truly want the most fade-resistant finish, then a kynar-based finish would be recommended. All clad windows will still fade over time, but kynar finishes would take longer. My take on it is uneven fading is somewhat a thing of the past, but overall fading is still going to happen.

netman63129
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Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:52 am

Re: Pella Inserts vs. Marvin Ultimate Inserts

#30 Post by netman63129 »

Hello, I apologize for resurrecting a 14 year-old thread but I find that seemingly not much has changed between Pella Lifestyle and Marvin Ultimate and I am trying to decide between the two companies for a full door/window replacement of my old vinyl single-hung to clad/wood casements. I have chosen a dark brown/bronze color. The pricing is similar for both companies.

My pros for Pella are the availability of the shades between the glass (triple-pane) and a high-quality roll-screen so I don't have to store screens. My pros for Marvin are the all extruded aluminum cladding and the 20 year warranty on the Kynar finish. By contrast, Pella offers a limited lifetime warranty on basically everything but the finish, which is 2 years. This makes me suspicious. Pella does offer EnduraClad Plus, which extends the finish warranty to 20 years but it is very expensive.

I would be curious to hear recent experiences (<10 years) regarding the quality of finish between both companies?

Thanks,
Mike

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