Confused about condensation

[WindowsDirectCinci]

I have literally tried to scratch the i89 on a sample I have. It took a lot. I cleaned it with foam cleaner which we all know is very strong it did nothing. Scraped it(not super hard) with a multi tool and nothing. It literally took steel wool to show hazing. All of these things are not normal use that a homeowner would do. Although I don't do a lot of it I have no reservation about it's durability or getting anymore interior condensation calls than what would be normal. cost wise it is significantly less $ than triple pane. Knock it all you want but If a customer is looking to maximize energy efficiency without the extra weight when tilting in, wear and tear on balances, darkness of glass and size limitations that you get with triple pane it is a very viable option. We do about 500 units a year with cardinals i89 surface 4 and have had no feedback from customers telling me otherwise. Cardinal glass which the customer is referring to use indium which is apparently much harder than silver typically used in low-e. I want to state again Im in Ohio and it does get pretty cold here but those condensation issues may be more telling in New England. I good reference point would be to check references. Also indoor humidity can be pretty easily controlled on most modern thermostats so I see it as a complete non issue

[toddinmn]

Masterext, The link you posted is an actual link but so is mine . They both come directly from Cardinal, perhaps you do not understand what a service bulletin is? You say it will not scratch but links indicate that it will.The service bulletin is a little more precise in what can actually damage it.
Windows direct , I believe your experiences to be true, and the i89 package seems to serve you well. It is pretty hard to find actual complaints on condensation with i89, but what we do know and according to Cardinal this package is more prone to condensation and damage to the interior surface than other glass packs and I do not consider you to be selling snake oil. Glad to here you’re input based on real life experiences.

[masterext]

Todd
i am going by what Cardinal’s website clearly states, what cardinal’s engineers had told me and what windowsdirectcincy has told us based in his first hand experience.

[HomeSealed]

A great U value from a surface 4 glass package in a cold climate is the closest thing to true snake oil in the window business these days.

Seems pretty harsh. Pella has been using it for a few years I believe. One of my competitors uses it a lot and I’ve had plenty of customers request it. I’m not getting those condensation calls, my competitor who pushes it has good reviews which lead me to believe they they aren’t getting those calls either. It gets pretty cold here in Ohio. When manufacturers have new technology come out some get on board and some don’t. The ones that don’t are usually the ones that knock it

I don't find it harsh, and I believe that Todd's link offers a pretty good idea as to why. As far as Pella using it, that may explain why we replace so many and this "new offering" will most certainly ensure that this trend continues.
The technology itself is totally legit, don't get me wrong, its just often misapplied IMO. I get plenty of condensation calls up north here on glass with excellent CR ratings, I certainly would not want to install a product that would lead to more of those. Most of these calls come in on days below 10 degrees or so. I realize that OH is cold, but perhaps not as cold... I will definitely reinforce my qualifier in the basis of this opinion applying to cold climates, and perhaps it would be appropriate to say VERY cold. I will also say that while again, it can be good in the right application and it sounds like your motives are sound when you utilize it for your clients, I don't believe that most are. Its use is more often to get a window of marginal performance to appear to perform better via the superior U value (in many cases needed to qualify for Energy Star), and homeowners are not subsequently informed of the drop in CR which is very real. The science is in on this.

As far as availability, I don't know of many manufacturers that don't have access to this technology.

Lastly, I'm interest to hear more about these thermostats that are able to pull humidity out of a home. Having done quite a bit of home performance and weatherization work, its not uncommon for added mechanical ventilation to be needed on newer homes (and some older ones) to control moisture. Certainly if someone has an Aprilaire or something along those lines a thermostat can adjust that down, however to state "indoor humidity can be pretty easily controlled on most modern thermostats so I see it as a complete non issue" is pretty inaccurate in my experience.... Perhaps once again this could be something specific to your area?

[toddinmn]

The link you posted clearly states scratch resistant , no where does it say it will not scratch, those are clearly your words. Yes I have used a razor blade to clean glass and it is really not that uncommon and neither are using some of the other products that they listed on TSB.

[masterext]

Todd
Rather than argue for the sake of boredom, go by the link i posted where cardinal clearly states their i89 does not scratch. The scratching you mention in their other literature may apply to all glass that is negligently cleaned with steel wool, not only i89. If you want to say it scratches more than regular glass, more power to you. Its also turns red, white, and blue on the 4th of july.
However, I dont endorse it soley based on condensation concerns.

[toddinmn]

I am merely pointing out that you arguing with Cardinal, there engineers and yourself. Maybe you don’t understand what “scratch resistant” means? I would think the scratching in my other literature is referring to what scratch resistant means in youre literature but only being more technical hence it being a technical service bulletin.
I hope you’re not endorsing it on being scratch proof

[masterext]

todd
you are well aware that i stated i agree with cardinal and their engineers that their i89 wont scratch off.
why you are saying im arguing with them is rather absurd.
thats very weird.

[toddinmn]

You said you agreed with what they say but you contradicted What they said. They say it’s scratch resistant and you say it won’t scratch.
As most Of us all know even a diamond can be scratched,the only things off the top of my head that can’t be scratched are liquids, gases and things that are not real.

[toddinmn]

To clarify;
https://www.diffen.com/difference/Scrat ... _Resistant

[WindowsDirectCinci]

A great U value from a surface 4 glass package in a cold climate is the closest thing to true snake oil in the window business these days.

Seems pretty harsh. Pella has been using it for a few years I believe. One of my competitors uses it a lot and I’ve had plenty of customers request it. I’m not getting those condensation calls, my competitor who pushes it has good reviews which lead me to believe they they aren’t getting those calls either. It gets pretty cold here in Ohio. When manufacturers have new technology come out some get on board and some don’t. The ones that don’t are usually the ones that knock it

Lastly, I'm interest to hear more about these thermostats that are able to pull humidity out of a home. Having done quite a bit of home performance and weatherization work, its not uncommon for added mechanical ventilation to be needed on newer homes (and some older ones) to control moisture. Certainly if someone has an Aprilaire or something along those lines a thermostat can adjust that down, however to state "indoor humidity can be pretty easily controlled on most modern thermostats so I see it as a complete non issue" is pretty inaccurate in my experience.... Perhaps once again this could be something specific to your area?

Im no HVAC guy but my thermostat/furnace at my house and most around here have a humidity control. Set the dial and it controls the humidity in the home. Im sure your trying to trip me up on the terminology and thats fine I'm a window guy not a an hvac pro. Once again Wisconsin it may not be right for that climate and no different than choosing the appropriate low-e. but blanket statements about how something is snake oil because you may or may not have it as a product offering is pretty ludacris. I don't think replacing Pella windows has to do with their glass offerings, they have had a 10-15 year lifespan way before any new glass technology. What every they are doing I hope they keep doing it though About 8-10% of our customer base ops for the i89 and we have no issues and will stand behind any product we offer fully and so will the manufacturer.

[masterext]

Windowsdirstcincy
Is sunrise offering i89 or are you still using vytex?
Todd, scratch resistant, not scratch proof. No glass is scratch proof.

[toddinmn]

I think the word for that magic device is a humidistat.
Master ext, Do you realizeThat when you say “it won’t scratch” and “ no,it will not scratch and Cardinal would know.” You have defined the meaning of scratch proof.
As I said , you are arguing with yourself.
On a side note, a big contributing factor to rotted wood on Pella, and any wood window in my area from my experience has been condensation.

[WindowsDirectCinci]

Sunrise and Vytex both offer i89 as an option although they may call it something else

[masterext]

Todd
im guessing you watch Forensic Files and apply it to message boards.