Confused about condensation

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Fitz22
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Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:19 am

Confused about condensation

#1 Post by Fitz22 »

I’m about to enter the vinyl replacement world for the first time and I’m unsure about which glass package to order. I found one that suits me for U-factor(.24), SHGC, and VT but has Condensation Resistance of 46. I understand that 46 isn't great but I’m unsure if condensation will be a problem considering the low U factor. There is another option with a CR of 55, but the U jumps to .29. I live in New England. Any input appreciated.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Confused about condensation

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

The window with the lower U-factor likely has a surface 4 coating. The Middle-40's is less than perfect in a climate where it gets cold. If you have had any hints of condensation before, you are going to want to steer clear of that option between the two.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Confused about condensation

#3 Post by HomeSealed »

WoW is spot on. I'd avoid that glass package like the plague in your area unless you have a very, very dry or drafty home in the winter months. I'd take that a step further and state that the .29 U and 55CR on what I'd assume is their standard surface 2 low-e and argon double pane, indicate a window that is not very good. This is why they need to offer that surface 4 glass package, to make their window appear to be a high performance choice. It's not. I'd consider other options. A great U value from a surface 4 glass package in a cold climate is the closest thing to true snake oil in the window business these days.

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toddinmn
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Re: Confused about condensation

#4 Post by toddinmn »

https://www.brikbase.org/sites/default/ ... gers_0.pdf
One of the more scientific takes on the subject.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Confused about condensation

#5 Post by HomeSealed »

Good link Todd.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Confused about condensation

#6 Post by Windows on Washington »

That is some heavy Friday night reading...but good stuff.

Fitz22
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Re: Confused about condensation

#7 Post by Fitz22 »

Thanks for the words of warning. Ive now decided to steer clear of that one. Basically I’m looking for a window that behaves like clear glass as far as solar heat gain (have a sunny southern exposure in winter, shady in summer) but with better heat retention and a bit less condensation. I also want lots of light to pass through. The windows I’m looking at are Vanguard.
Whew, that link was some heavy reading!

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Confused about condensation

#8 Post by Windows on Washington »

There are some more exotic options out there with regards to glazing packages aimed at passivhaus and other highly refined design criteria, but I think you will be fine with a 2 coat range Low-e like Low-e 272 or Guardian 7138. Both are going to give you good light penetration and a modest SHGC for some free wintertime heating.

masterext
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Re: Confused about condensation

#9 Post by masterext »

Personally, i think home owners can start to over analyze shgc numbers a little too much. I like to keep it simple. Up here in the northeast its usually a .26-.30 unless a certain room gets killed by the sun and causes quality of life issues in which case we use a lower shgc glass package.
The SHGC nunber can also go up or down based on whether the window has grids.

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toddinmn
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Re: Confused about condensation

#10 Post by toddinmn »

If you move the 272 to surface 3 you can bump your solar into the 0.40 range
I rarely run into home owners who are up on solar numbers unless it is in forums. I only think they over analyze because it is pretty difficult to analyze and most contractors clueless. I try to keep as simple well, Most people would get overwhelmed and it would probably be a more difficult. Choice than picking out which brand and which contractor to use. Kind of like trying someone which car tire to pick out with out knowing all the details. Most people are just going to be happy with an all season radial just like 272. I just buy new take offs on rims and don’t pay much attention to the tire.

WindowsDirectCinci
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Re: Confused about condensation

#11 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

HomeSealed wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:40 am A great U value from a surface 4 glass package in a cold climate is the closest thing to true snake oil in the window business these days.
Seems pretty harsh. Pella has been using it for a few years I believe. One of my competitors uses it a lot and I’ve had plenty of customers request it. I’m not getting those condensation calls, my competitor who pushes it has good reviews which lead me to believe they they aren’t getting those calls either. It gets pretty cold here in Ohio. When manufacturers have new technology come out some get on board and some don’t. The ones that don’t are usually the ones that knock it

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toddinmn
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Re: Confused about condensation

#12 Post by toddinmn »

Perhaps a little harsh indeed. I have no problem with one pushing i89 as long as they are straight forward with it being more likely condensate and the fragility Of the coating . I also think it would be wrong to promote ones window with i89 to another brands with out and claiming it be superior based on the u-value alone.
I have not had one customer ask for this glass and my guess is if they did it was based on looking at the U value alone. Maybe this is a case of the haves and have nots , since this glass is not available to some of us maybe that’s the underlying factor ?
What is this glass package adding to cost compared going to a triple pane?

masterext
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Re: Confused about condensation

#13 Post by masterext »

i89 is not a true hardcoat, meaning it wont scratch and it wont causing “ hazing”. Its more of a hybrid unlike some other surface 4 coatings. Guardian has a similar glass package.

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toddinmn
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Re: Confused about condensation

#14 Post by toddinmn »

Won’t scratch? I suppose it won’t condensate either.
I think Cardinal knows there product pretty well.https://www.cardinalcorp.com/source/pdf ... 1-2016.pdf

masterext
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Re: Confused about condensation

#15 Post by masterext »

No, it will not scratch and cardinal would know. Todd, do you always clean your windows with a razor blade or a brillo pad ? I dont know anyone that does.

Straight from Cardinal’s website..

“In addition to providing maximum energy efficiency in a double-pane unit, LoĒ-i89 offers several other customer-pleasing benefits.

Its surface is smooth and scratch resistant, making it easier to remove label residue and clean. And perhaps most importantly, there’s no haze to mar the view.

Rather than absorbing internal heat, LoĒ-i89 reflects it back into the room, making your living space feel warmer and more comfortable.
Naturally Cardinal IG units with LoĒ-i89 live up to the Cardinal reputation for long-range durability, delivering the industry’s lowest failure rate – only 0.20% over 20 years. “

Here is the actual link.
https://www.cardinalcorp.com/products/c ... s/loe-i89/

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