Very large replacement project

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masterext
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Re: Very large replacement project

#31 Post by masterext »

The fact is that fiberglass is an overhyped window material which lacks in performance. The numbers simply dont lie and thats one of the reasons fiberglass windows never quite took off. Just take a look at the dismal performance numbers on the pella impervia window, they are horrendous in my view. The Marvin infinity is an ok looking window but not "ok looking" enough to mitigate its performance flaws.
When it comes to expansion and contraction, the only thing expanding is your bs and the only thing contracting is your credibility.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Very large replacement project

#32 Post by Windows on Washington »

Can't speak for everyone here, but I think that everyone on here offers a Fiberglass window option as well. Some folks want that look as well as the expanded interior options.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Very large replacement project

#33 Post by TheWindowNerd »

Fiberglass offers larger picture units.

On SH or DH I would love to see .03 or less AL on fiberglass.
wayne theWindowNerd

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HomeSealed
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Re: Very large replacement project

#34 Post by HomeSealed »

TSquared wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:51 pm
Windows on Washington wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:37 pm
TSquared wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:33 pm OP, one nice thing about fiberglass windows like Marvins Elevate, Essential or the Infinity series is that Fiberglass has a same basic expansion and contraction rate as glass. Thus, you get significantly less seal failures and frame failures. Fiberglass has strength and because of that you generally get more glass and less frame thickness.
As far as warranties go, The Infinity series has a lifetime warranty.
Budgets are what they are, and we all have to take that into consideration, no matter what we are purchasing.
Don't want to be a contrarian here TSquared, but this is absolutely marketing BS selling spin that was generated by the fiberglass manufacturers.

Not only is the claim of a mechanism and reduction in seal failures provably false, the claimed similar coefficient of expansion is also 100% untrue.
Then we will have to just disagree on this, and the OP can do his research about the expansion and contraction rate of fiberglass compared to vinyl. I have no interest in getting into an argument with anyone here and am just looking to help the public by providing window information coming from my experience and training. I don't charge anything for it and the public can take my information for just a post on an internet forum. Makes no difference to me.
In regard to Performance grade ratings (PG ratings) It's takes into consideration the entire window which includes the glass. Any manufacturer can make a small window, test its performance and list the windows series as the highest PG rating, they come up with. I would only suggest to perspective buyers that if PG ratings were important to you in your particular zone, then ask for the report that shows the rating of every window in your schedule. I'm sure what Infinity window you are referring to, but in most cases, they have a PG40 rating.
Well at least you don't charge for it, :lol:
Sounds like your training and experience, is predominately rooted in Marvin propaganda. Don't get me wrong, I sell/install Marvin windows in the right circumstance (as most of the pros that contribute to this site do), and I believe that they make a quality product even if its not a top tier performer. Their technical assessment however in comparing fg vs vinyl is mostly fluff at best, if not deliberately misleading.

Yes, PG/DP ratings are completed by testing the entire, assembled window. From there, you misunderstand how this works. Can a manufacturer have any size they want tested? Sure can. Ironically, Marvin (among others) has done this and I've seen "uncertified" ratings for PG and air infiltration provided to consumers. What a manufacturer CANNOT do, is choose any size window that they want tested for certification. The certification itself requires/provides a gateway size, and the manufacturer must provide a window that meets that requirement. It would be impossible for a consumer to request a Structural Data Test Report for every window size that they intend to purchase, as they won't have all been tested, nor is there any reason to.

The way that manufacturers and sales teams promoting products that offer inferior performance get by is by trying to create confusion around a pretty simple issue such as this. These tactics attempt to make it impossible to accurately compare one product to the next, whereas comparing certified products levels that playing field. This "misdirection" seems to be more prevalent with air leakage ratings in my experience, but certainly applies to PG as well....

This is all tremendously ironic of course given that high end vinyl windows test out to be much stronger assemblies than their fiberglass counterparts. Perhaps this is why Marvin shows a kid standing on lineal of raw material in their brochure as opposed to the actual window(s).

Regarding glass seals, as was already explained, this is also nonsense. The materials and methods used to build an insulated glass unit determine its resistance to seal failure, not the raw material of the window that it is placed into.

Lastly, does vinyl have a greater rate of expansion than fiberglass? Yep.
That said, is it essentially negligible in a residential window application, is it further mitigated by the engineering of the product(s) which takes the inherent characteristics of the material into account... and all to the point that the higher end vinyl windows on the market are actually stronger and more air tight than the FG unit in question?
Yes, yes, and yes.

TSquared
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Re: Very large replacement project

#35 Post by TSquared »

Hey all, I've made it back for a quick visit as my personal life and business have been extremely busy.
I'll just say this, I sell vinyl windows as well. I'd challenge you this, make your vinyl frame, stiles and rails as narrow as an Infinity and then see how strong your vinyl is. Probably most that need to be in a vinyl budget don't care about losing glass size when buying windows (I didn't back when I replaced mine) but to compare DP ratings like you are, just isn't being honest with the public.
The pitch about vinyl having all the chambers to trap air and provide better performance works for the unknowing, but the fact is, vinyl needs it for structure, fiberglass doesn't.
Next time your installers go to a job, make sure you provide them with the new vinyl ladder. LOL

Have a great weekend and
God bless you all.

Ricknez
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Re: Very large replacement project

#36 Post by Ricknez »

TSquared
I highly doubt both your personal and business life are very busy unless you are counting the hours you spend on tinder and at AA meetings.
Perhaps you are breathing in too many fiberglass particles?

TSquared
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Re: Very large replacement project

#37 Post by TSquared »

Very funny Rick, LOL

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Very large replacement project

#38 Post by Windows on Washington »

TSquared wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 8:52 am Hey all, I've made it back for a quick visit as my personal life and business have been extremely busy.
I'll just say this, I sell vinyl windows as well. I'd challenge you this, make your vinyl frame, stiles and rails as narrow as an Infinity and then see how strong your vinyl is. Probably most that need to be in a vinyl budget don't care about losing glass size when buying windows (I didn't back when I replaced mine) but to compare DP ratings like you are, just isn't being honest with the public.
The pitch about vinyl having all the chambers to trap air and provide better performance works for the unknowing, but the fact is, vinyl needs it for structure, fiberglass doesn't.
Next time your installers go to a job, make sure you provide them with the new vinyl ladder. LOL

Have a great weekend and
God bless you all.
The non sequiturs are plentiful in this post.

Best VT number out of a Marvin Infinity...0.64. Best VT number out of one of those "bulky" vinyl windows...0.62.

A big 2% indeed. Now...compare the DP numbers of those two windows in question and the Marvin is 20-30% lower...why? If the frame lineals are of such a superior material, why the lesser DP number with next to no differential in glass size? This all seems weird.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Very large replacement project

#39 Post by HomeSealed »

TSquared wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 8:52 am Hey all, I've made it back for a quick visit as my personal life and business have been extremely busy.
I'll just say this, I sell vinyl windows as well. I'd challenge you this, make your vinyl frame, stiles and rails as narrow as an Infinity and then see how strong your vinyl is. Probably most that need to be in a vinyl budget don't care about losing glass size when buying windows (I didn't back when I replaced mine) but to compare DP ratings like you are, just isn't being honest with the public.
The pitch about vinyl having all the chambers to trap air and provide better performance works for the unknowing, but the fact is, vinyl needs it for structure, fiberglass doesn't.
Next time your installers go to a job, make sure you provide them with the new vinyl ladder. LOL

Have a great weekend and
God bless you all.
Hmmm... perhaps if the fiberglass window had a more robust frame it would be able to achieve DP ratings closer to vinyl windows?

- There are some pretty darn "narrow lined" vinyl windows (close to the Infinity in visible glass area) on the market that still have excellent DP and AI ratings. WoW alluded to this with his VT reference.

- I'm not sure that fiberglass not having chambers in the frame is much of a "flex" here, (pun intended given all of the added "flex" in a window with a low DP ;) ). As I stated earlier, yes these material are different, yes, each has pros and cons, but ultimately the finished product and its performance thermally and structurally are what matter for homeowners.

- I'll also agree with WoW that this is indeed weird... as the product claiming to be stronger can only tout the strength of the raw material that it is constructed of (as opposed to an engineered, assembled window), and promotes pictures of kids standing on said raw material as opposed to actual, certified testing showing the strength of the actual product. This sounds a lot closer to "just isn't being honest with the public" IMO.

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