Elementary Installation Question - Steel Frames

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cojo47
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Elementary Installation Question - Steel Frames

#1 Post by cojo47 »

In anticipation of replacing old wooden windows in a 1930s brick house, we've noticed that some of the old window frames contain steel. In some cases there appears to be some sort of steel cladding tacked down over the lower half of the frame, in other cases the entire frame appears to be steel.

If the frames are steel, is it necessary to do full frame replacements, or can new framesever be inserted inside the old steel frames. If the former, can anyone give us a sense of how much extra expense we might face for vinyl or fiberglass DH replacement windows?

Thanks!

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Elementary Installation Question - Steel Frames

#2 Post by Windows on Washington »

cojo47 wrote:In anticipation of replacing old wooden windows in a 1930s brick house, we've noticed that some of the old window frames contain steel. In some cases there appears to be some sort of steel cladding tacked down over the lower half of the frame, in other cases the entire frame appears to be steel.

If the frames are steel, is it necessary to do full frame replacements, or can new framesever be inserted inside the old steel frames. If the former, can anyone give us a sense of how much extra expense we might face for vinyl or fiberglass DH replacement windows?

Thanks!
I would look into removing the entire frame and installing in the rough opening. Steel transmits a energy especially fast and is also subject to oxidation. I have seen vinyl/fiberglas windows stained as a result of steel framing.

The added expense you would be looking at would the trim/framing of the opening if the steel comes to the inside of the home as well.

We usually do it on a flat rate per opening.

cojo47
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#3 Post by cojo47 »

Thanks WoW. I wondered about the thermal properties of steel, and whether it would matter in the frame.

We've had a sales rep whom we like take a look. He says that installing over the steel frames is not a big problem - though he speculates that his installer may have to cut off a few ridge-like pieces on the metal frame (for example, the tracks that the screens run in); this makes me a little nervous. He did say that he would have his installer check it out further, and we will take him up on that before going forward. His point, consistent with other threads here, is that a full frame tear out will make a big mess of our old trim. I'm still not at ease with this, so out of curiosity, how expensive is it, typically per window, to replace the frame, or does that vary greatly with the specifics of the situation?

Wds83
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#4 Post by Wds83 »

I never leave the metal frame in....Most come out easy if you now what your doing...Most of my installs with metal frames I never have to touch the interior molding whether its plaster or wood ext jambs. I would ask the installer when he comes out to measure the windows. Most of the time the salesman has no clue on the installation...but they talk a good game :wink: Don't let them leave them in. What did they say about finishing the outside? Are they going to cap over the metal frames..What are they going to fasten the capping to? If it was me I would call the owner of the company and get an installer out there to show you exactly how they are going to put them in...Most salesman now the basics when it comes to the installation, what they are told...Most have no real installation training (months in the field).

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Windows on Washington
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#5 Post by Windows on Washington »

Are we talking about a steel buck frame or just a metal window?

Steel buck frame requires the installation of interior trim and sills. If you just have a metal window and already have all the interior casing and sills, no way would I ever leave that frame in.

Like the guys said, you just need to know how to get the window out.

cojo47
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#6 Post by cojo47 »

Good question WoW. I'm afraid my ignorance is showing, but here's what I can see; perhaps it's enough to give you a clue. I do have a photo, but, alas, am not set up to post it here.

The window sashes are wood. They are raised and lowered with exposed rope (sash cords) that go through a vertical member (the jamb?), which turns out to be (painted) steel. (I had assumed it was wood until I looked more closely.) In addition, on the outside of the window there is a raised steel track that holds window screens.

It sounds like I need to follow Wds83's advice and ask the installer - not just the salesman - how the job should best be done. So, many thanks for your inputs that are helping me get even a bit of insight to guide my questions, and thanks, further, for any additional opinions or advice that might yet be offered!

window dan
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#7 Post by window dan »

They almost sound like old Pella windows. Steel frames with wood clad interiors. If they are you must remove the whole window to the studs.
Also do not throw the hardware away if they are Pella. Put it on E bay I have heard people desire these items. Might not be true but I'm jus sayin.
Send a picture it would really help.

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Windows on Washington
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#8 Post by Windows on Washington »

post up a picture when you get a chance or a link to one. You have yahoo right....?

cojo47
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#9 Post by cojo47 »

Hello again -

I'm back after a long delay to deal with other pressing new (old!) house issues. Alas, window replacement decisions keep slipping though we are eager to get on with them.

The question is whether replacement windows can be inserted inside our existing frames, which seem to be primarily steel, or whether the old frames have to be removed, making for an apparently more difficult and costly installation.

Here are pictures that show what I have been asking about in previous postings. The black arrows point to parts of the window frame that are steel. The raised metal rail on the outside serves as a track for window screens. The unpainted metal track on which the lower window rides is a U-shaped sleeve that is tacked down to the sill and jambs. The sill is wood, but the jambs appear to be steel.

Image Image

Many thanks for your patience, and for any and all informed opinions. And happy holidays to all!

JScott
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#10 Post by JScott »

You luckily have just a steel track. Easily removal but be careful as the steel may cut you when removing. No need for a full frame removal.

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Windows on Washington
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#11 Post by Windows on Washington »

Exactly as JScott said. Very easy removal and about 1/10 of the work required for a buck frame removal. You should not pay for a metal out charge either. Those tracks will pop out most times with a tug from a flat bar.

cojo47
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#12 Post by cojo47 »

Thanks, that sounds like really good news!!

Follow-up question: I can see where the unpainted steel track that is tacked down will pop out. But it seems that a lot of the surrounding structure (e.g., the jamb) is also steel. My impression is that the guy we're thinking of buying from intends to remove the unpainted track, but insert the replacement frame inside all of that other steal. (I'm not sure how he will deal with those outer rails that hold the screens - I thought he said he'd cut them off.) Does that make sense, or are you saying that EVERYTHING that is steal (everything pointed to by black arrows) can and should be removed prior to inserting replacement frames?

I think when I actually SEE the windows removed and see how the pieces fit together this will become clear, but for now my lack of construction knowledge is really limiting my comprehension.

Thanks once again!

cojo47
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#13 Post by cojo47 »

Clarification - referring back to the two pictures above - all of the black arrows point to metal components - three of the four have been painted white over the steel. Thx!

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#14 Post by Windows on Washington »

Worst case scenario you are looking at a "metal-out" removal for that steel frame. The interior does not need to be trimmed out or anything similiar to when you remove a steel buck frame. Shouldn't be that bad a project.

window dan
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#15 Post by window dan »

easy day for the installer!!!! simple wood pop out windows. chisel the stops from the outside, install from the outside and wrap exterior with coil. it doesnt get much better than this. 10 windows 6 hours 3 guys tops.

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