Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

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kpytoi9
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Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#1 Post by kpytoi9 »

All,

We are knee deep into figuring out how best to replace our windows. We had a couple of reputable contractors come out who say that doing a Pocket Replacement into our Metal Frames is a big no no and are pushing for a Full Tear Out and replacement. We have Dryvit exterior and they claim that they will cut the frame out to the rough opening without damaging the Dryvit and then will screw the new windows into the sides and insulating any gaps between the window and the rough opening.

Wanted to get some feedback on whether or not it makes sense to do that.
Our current windows are wood with aluminum cladding on the outside and aluminum frames. The frames are in good condition.

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toddinmn
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#2 Post by toddinmn »

That would be the preferred method for me.
I’d confirm the trim details.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#3 Post by HomeSealed »

Any pictures of the existing windows?

The thing that I don't love about what they are proposing is that its really just sealed by caulk, and dryvit can be a leaky system. If they do it that way, at minimum I'd look for a new drip cap to be tucked up behind the top nail fin that is left embedded.

Most recently in that type of scenario we've installed new windows with nail fin, and the homeowner contracted a dryvit contractor to come in and repair the area that we had to cut back. That would be the most thorough method IMO.

kpytoi9
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#4 Post by kpytoi9 »

Here are some pics of the windows. All of them are the same in terms of style/frame.
The frame is aluminum.
Attachments
Window 3.jpg
Window 2.jpg
Window 1.jpg

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toddinmn
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#5 Post by toddinmn »

I would not cut Back to remove the nail fin here.
How they handle the drip cap, Dryvit to window and the window To the interior trim are The details I’d focus on .

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toddinmn
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#6 Post by toddinmn »

I would not cut Back to remove the nail fin here.
How they handle the drip cap, Dryvit to window and the window To the interior trim are The details I’d focus on .

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HomeSealed
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#7 Post by HomeSealed »

Looks like those windows are aluminum to the exterior and wood interior? If there are no leaks and the interior frames and woodwork are in good shape, this isn't an awful candidate for "pocket" replacement. That would maintain the integrity of the current water management system where the window ties to the wall. These are done all the time without regard to the type of siding.

An install with nail fin and cut back isn't out of the question either, although it will cost exponentially more, and the cut back will be significant based on the pediment and "sill stone" designs integrated within and the shutters would need to move out.

I'd opt for either of those methods as providing more protection than the "express" install that they seem to have offered.

kpytoi9
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#8 Post by kpytoi9 »

toddinmn wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:56 pm I would not cut Back to remove the nail fin here.
How they handle the drip cap, Dryvit to window and the window To the interior trim are The details I’d focus on .
How would you go about installing a replacement window in this case if you do not cut back to remove the nail fin?

kpytoi9
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#9 Post by kpytoi9 »

HomeSealed wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 6:23 pm Looks like those windows are aluminum to the exterior and wood interior? If there are no leaks and the interior frames and woodwork are in good shape, this isn't an awful candidate for "pocket" replacement. That would maintain the integrity of the current water management system where the window ties to the wall. These are done all the time without regard to the type of siding.

An install with nail fin and cut back isn't out of the question either, although it will cost exponentially more, and the cut back will be significant based on the pediment and "sill stone" designs integrated within and the shutters would need to move out.

I'd opt for either of those methods as providing more protection than the "express" install that they seem to have offered.
These are aluminum clad on the exterior and wood on the interior. The woodwork/trim is in good shape (visually). How do I know if its leaking or not? I know there is air infiltration/leakage where the sash meets the frame, given that the sash is rotting. Part of the reason why we decided to replace the windows.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#10 Post by HomeSealed »

In a pocket replacement, the sashes and hardware are removed, leaving the original mainframe in place. If the wood portion of it is in good condition and you see no evidence of water infiltration, its probably not leaking. In most cases the mulls would be cut out (vertical and horizontal dividers) leaving a clean box to install the new window within. The new window is downsized to fit within the old frame. The benefits here are cost, leaving the old wall to window frame seal in tact, and retaining undisturbed woodwork. Aluminum cladding is added outside, and a small wood stop (shoe or cove typically) is added inside to cover the edge of the frame.

The other way to install without a nail fin is what your contractor seems to have recommended. The old frame is removed, but the nail fin is left embedded. New window installed same size as original (maybe slight downsize to accommodate a racked opening). The exterior is then caulked as the primary (sometimes only) seal. On the interior the woodwork may or may not need to be removed and reinstalled, replaced, or some combination based on jamb depth and other factors. There isn't room to add foam from the exterior, so that is done from the interior unless the woodwork stays in place.

There are some guys that don't like to do pockets on these with metal exteriors as the aluminum capping takes some ingenuity and the mulls can be a pain to cut out. I'd still prefer it over the other option proposed as I know I can get full insulating foam, do the capping properly, etc.

kpytoi9
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#11 Post by kpytoi9 »

HomeSealed wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:28 pm In a pocket replacement, the sashes and hardware are removed, leaving the original mainframe in place. If the wood portion of it is in good condition and you see no evidence of water infiltration, its probably not leaking. In most cases the mulls would be cut out (vertical and horizontal dividers) leaving a clean box to install the new window within. The new window is downsized to fit within the old frame. The benefits here are cost, leaving the old wall to window frame seal in tact, and retaining undisturbed woodwork. Aluminum cladding is added outside, and a small wood stop (shoe or cove typically) is added inside to cover the edge of the frame.

The other way to install without a nail fin is what your contractor seems to have recommended. The old frame is removed, but the nail fin is left embedded. New window installed same size as original (maybe slight downsize to accommodate a racked opening). The exterior is then caulked as the primary (sometimes only) seal. On the interior the woodwork may or may not need to be removed and reinstalled, replaced, or some combination based on jamb depth and other factors. There isn't room to add foam from the exterior, so that is done from the interior unless the woodwork stays in place.

There are some guys that don't like to do pockets on these with metal exteriors as the aluminum capping takes some ingenuity and the mulls can be a pain to cut out. I'd still prefer it over the other option proposed as I know I can get full insulating foam, do the capping properly, etc.
My big fear with a pocket replacement is that 10 years from now, my frames deteriorate and I am essentially left at a point where I have to start all over, after spending all this money now. Not sure if its a rational/real issue to be afraid of or not.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#12 Post by HomeSealed »

Unless they are deteriorated now (in which case don't do pockets), there's no reason to think that they would be anywhere down the road... and to clarify, I mean the frames. If the sashes are rotted that is to be expected and those are going into the landfill anyway.
Last edited by HomeSealed on Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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toddinmn
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#13 Post by toddinmn »

I agree with Homesealed. I originally thought that these were all aluminum windows vs aluminum clad wood . The only negative is A little
bit of glass loss.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#14 Post by TheWindowNerd »

I would also look at whether the interior stop is applied or routed as part of the main frame.
This item will affect visible glass also.

Does size or design dictate that you have transoms?

kpytoi9
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Re: Full Tear out vs Pocket Window Replacement

#15 Post by kpytoi9 »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:16 pm I would also look at whether the interior stop is applied or routed as part of the main frame.
This item will affect visible glass also.

Does size or design dictate that you have transoms?
I think the size dictates that I have transoms. The height of the window (frames including) is 76 inches. Most window manufacturers offer up to 72 inches.
Sunrise offers up to 76 inches, so we would go with the Sunrise windows and get rid of the transoms and have just 2 casements.

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