Vinyl failing on new windows

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HomeSealed
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#16 Post by HomeSealed »

coinmls wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:05 pm @HomeSealed: No, the windows will not clean up. You cannot clean the discoloration which again, correlates to areas hit hardest by the sun (less or no discoloration for windows that get less or no sun). Doing some light Googling other Internet users indicate that the vinyl is breaking down.
Fair enough. I've not seen vinyl degradation due to the sun with that type of appearance, however I'm in WI not AZ. Suffice it to say that the sun that we see here isn't quite as damaging as yours.

Not to belabor the point, but have you actually attempted to clean it or are you just assuming that they won't be able to be cleaned? If you have, what was used? I wouldn't go bonkers spraying harsh solvents all over, but again, scrub with some mineral spirits and fine steel wool in an inconspicuous location just to see what you get. That's not going to void a warranty. Any installer that says he's never had to do the same to clean off some foam or caulk excess is a liar.

Its not out of the realm of possibility that there could be some airborne contaminants that have caused that (as opposed to the sun) as another possibility. Also, fwiw, most manufacturers have language excluding uniform fading and discoloration due to weathering, and also due to environmental contaminants as well. Hopefully you are able to determine the cause and find a fair solution either way.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#17 Post by TheWindowNerd »

I do not think the tact on this is legal.
I think it is public embarrassment of Toll.
They have already corrected others, they will correct yours too.
I would expect the next Toll developement wont be sing those windows.

coinmls
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#18 Post by coinmls »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:37 pm I do not think the tact on this is legal.
I think it is public embarrassment of Toll.
They have already corrected others, they will correct yours too.
I would expect the next Toll developement wont be sing those windows.
Yes, but back to my questions. Is painting the windows "correcting" the problem or just covering it up? Will my painted windows last as long as non-defective windows would have lasted? Will painted windows cost me more because I'll have to repaint them every few years, which is a maintenance item I shouldn't have to deal with had "good" windows been used?

coinmls
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#19 Post by coinmls »

coinmls wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:14 am
TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:37 pm I do not think the tact on this is legal.
I think it is public embarrassment of Toll.
They have already corrected others, they will correct yours too.
I would expect the next Toll developement wont be sing those windows.
Yes, but back to my questions. Is painting the windows "correcting" the problem or just covering it up? Will my painted windows last (in function and appearance) as long as non-defective windows would have lasted? Will painted windows cost me more because I'll have to repaint them every few years, which is a maintenance item I shouldn't have to deal with had "good" windows been used?

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#20 Post by TheWindowNerd »

To be blunt, track builders use crappy windows.
I my area, Philly, the home of Toll. Many new construction homes will be lucky to make it ten years before they start to replace their windows. No facts but my observation is that builders have always been squezzing the penny. The common use of IGU and the cos control leads to seal failure, as well as a general planned obsulence and lowering of quality.

Painting will do both. Literally cover up the look and provide satisfactory look. Duration only need last as long as original warranty.

coinmls
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#21 Post by coinmls »

TheWindowNerd wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:00 am To be blunt, track builders use crappy windows.
I my area, Philly, the home of Toll. Many new construction homes will be lucky to make it ten years before they start to replace their windows. No facts but my observation is that builders have always been squezzing the penny. The common use of IGU and the cos control leads to seal failure, as well as a general planned obsulence and lowering of quality.

Painting will do both. Literally cover up the look and provide satisfactory look. Duration only need last as long as original warranty.
I agree and never expected to have high quality windows. But I did expect them to maintain their appearance and function for a reasonable time. I will respectfully disagree with how long the paint needs to last. The functional life of a product and the warranty period are two different things. A new Chevy comes with a 3 year warranty, but everyone expects the car to maintain its function and appearance for a much longer period. If the paint on your new car fails in the first year, they can't use a can of Krylon spray paint on the affected area that will last for a few years and call it good. If there's a problem with the leather seats, they can' just give you a pair of seat covers that will last until the end of the warranty and call it good. Anything that reduces the total life of the window or increases my maintenance costs is a loss for me.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#22 Post by HomeSealed »

coinmls wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:14 am
TheWindowNerd wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:37 pm I do not think the tact on this is legal.
I think it is public embarrassment of Toll.
They have already corrected others, they will correct yours too.
I would expect the next Toll developement wont be sing those windows.
Yes, but back to my questions. Is painting the windows "correcting" the problem or just covering it up? Will my painted windows last as long as non-defective windows would have lasted? Will painted windows cost me more because I'll have to repaint them every few years, which is a maintenance item I shouldn't have to deal with had "good" windows been used?
That's been answered already: Paint is not going to last as long an extruded color.

That said, using your car analogy, if its done well, it should make the car's paint job and leather seats look like new for at least as long as the vehicle's expected useful life before the engine blows and the wheels fall off. As TWN alluded to, 10 years is a reasonable service life expectation for a builder grade window. A properly prepped and executed paint job should last that long or longer.
IMO, there are way to many unknowns here to say whether or not that is a fair solution, whether it would be appropriate to attempt to use the "public embarrassment" tactic, etc. As I said before, I do hope that a fair and just solution can be found.

coinmls
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#23 Post by coinmls »

Time for an update. Builder has been dragging feet on response and I wanted them to resolve other issues before I revive this issue again.

I ended up calling the manufacturer and the rep who answered the phone was very friendly and open with the facts. I got an audio recording of an admission that their vinyl frame supplier had a problem and as a result they are willing to paint the windows and after I started objecting to this solution, they offered to refund to me the amount that the builder originally paid for the windows. Turns out the builder paid about $100/window for 63 windows. I knew they were cheap windows but I had no idea they were that cheap! To be clear, that number does not include sliding glass doors which were made by a different company.

I have also studied state contractor standards, builder warranty, and window warranties and I feel that I fully understand them. What I have learned is that none of these standards or warranties cover the appearance of the window, they pretty much only cover glass and function. Although I can argue that degraded vinyl is weakened and thus less impact strength (to perhaps withstand a hail storm), that would require some effort and arguing. Additionally, the warranty terms also limit remedies, such as providing a replacement window materials but not labor.

I have also consulted with a lawyer and have identified an alternate solution. I am easily able to prove that the builder was aware of the defective windows well before my purchase by virtue of the fact that they were painting the windows of homes that sold many months before mine. In my state, the law requires the seller of real estate (even a new home builder) to disclose material facts and known defects. It is pretty well established that it is illegal for a home builder to knowingly install defective windows in your home and not disclose this information. In this case, the warranty terms become irrelevant and the legal remedy should be that the builder replaces the windows with like-kind windows and covers all costs of doing so. This is the route I am pursuing. I am now gathering quotes so that I can make my claim and see what their response is. Once I can get them to pay for the replacement of like-kind windows I can hopefully take the opportunity to pay a little extra and get some decent replacements.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#24 Post by TheWindowNerd »

perhaps they will give you $105 x 63 for like kind windows that stay white.
Good luck and let me know how things settle.

ttschwede
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#25 Post by ttschwede »

Good Afternoon! I am reaching out to see what the outcome was for this Cascade window issue? We are in an AZ Toll Brothers home where our windows have been warping from the first few months we moved in. Cascade is just about the WORST at ever responding to any calls/emails regarding the issue, and Toll Brothers couldn’t seem to get through to anyone as well. So, they put it on us to find a different company that could potentially “fix” our issue. After being rejected by multiple window companies, because they stated Cascade provided a faulty product & they know it has created countless problems for homes all over AZ…we found ONE company willing to work with Cascade and essentially “re-do” the glazing bead for all of our windows. However, if we go that route Toll Brothers will have us sign off on documentation stating they basically “wash their hands of the situation after this”, and if the new material used does not permanently “solve” the problem, it will basically be our issue to deal with in the future. We have an attorney who has advised us not to sign anything until we know the issue is fully resolved.
After searching the internet about Cascades faulty materials, I am running into posts like these. And I’d definitely be interested to hear what the outcome was, in order for us to move in the appropriate direction with our window issues.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#26 Post by Windows on Washington »

Is the warping consistent across all the units?

uncle eddie
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#27 Post by uncle eddie »

coinmls wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:59 pm Time for an update. Builder has been dragging feet on response and I wanted them to resolve other issues before I revive this issue again.

I ended up calling the manufacturer and the rep who answered the phone was very friendly and open with the facts. I got an audio recording of an admission that their vinyl frame supplier had a problem and as a result they are willing to paint the windows and after I started objecting to this solution, they offered to refund to me the amount that the builder originally paid for the windows. Turns out the builder paid about $100/window for 63 windows. I knew they were cheap windows but I had no idea they were that cheap! To be clear, that number does not include sliding glass doors which were made by a different company.

I have also studied state contractor standards, builder warranty, and window warranties and I feel that I fully understand them. What I have learned is that none of these standards or warranties cover the appearance of the window, they pretty much only cover glass and function. Although I can argue that degraded vinyl is weakened and thus less impact strength (to perhaps withstand a hail storm), that would require some effort and arguing. Additionally, the warranty terms also limit remedies, such as providing a replacement window materials but not labor.

I have also consulted with a lawyer and have identified an alternate solution. I am easily able to prove that the builder was aware of the defective windows well before my purchase by virtue of the fact that they were painting the windows of homes that sold many months before mine. In my state, the law requires the seller of real estate (even a new home builder) to disclose material facts and known defects. It is pretty well established that it is illegal for a home builder to knowingly install defective windows in your home and not disclose this information. In this case, the warranty terms become irrelevant and the legal remedy should be that the builder replaces the windows with like-kind windows and covers all costs of doing so. This is the route I am pursuing. I am now gathering quotes so that I can make my claim and see what their response is. Once I can get them to pay for the replacement of like-kind windows I can hopefully take the opportunity to pay a little extra and get some decent replacements.
This is a great post.

In a nutshell:
1) "I did research and found out that by industry standards and warranty terms my complaint is not a legit defect."
2) "I can prove that the builder knew about the defect (wait what?) and that's against the law!" lol
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HomeSealed
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Re: Vinyl failing on new windows

#28 Post by HomeSealed »

ttschwede wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2023 4:52 pm Good Afternoon! I am reaching out to see what the outcome was for this Cascade window issue? We are in an AZ Toll Brothers home where our windows have been warping from the first few months we moved in. Cascade is just about the WORST at ever responding to any calls/emails regarding the issue, and Toll Brothers couldn’t seem to get through to anyone as well. So, they put it on us to find a different company that could potentially “fix” our issue. After being rejected by multiple window companies, because they stated Cascade provided a faulty product & they know it has created countless problems for homes all over AZ…we found ONE company willing to work with Cascade and essentially “re-do” the glazing bead for all of our windows. However, if we go that route Toll Brothers will have us sign off on documentation stating they basically “wash their hands of the situation after this”, and if the new material used does not permanently “solve” the problem, it will basically be our issue to deal with in the future. We have an attorney who has advised us not to sign anything until we know the issue is fully resolved.
After searching the internet about Cascades faulty materials, I am running into posts like these. And I’d definitely be interested to hear what the outcome was, in order for us to move in the appropriate direction with our window issues.
Do you have any pics of your issues?

You should not have to sign off on anything that should be covered under warranty, and warping should be unless there is some external circumstance that is causing this.

Despite the same builder and window brand, I wouldn't put too much stock in the result for the OP as you have two very different issues going on.

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