Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

Ask replacement window questions & get answers!
Message
Author
TinyCat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:08 pm

Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#1 Post by TinyCat »

Long story short, we replaced all of our windows in 2018. Replacements were SoftLite replacements. I believe they were pocket replacements but installed from the outside which is unusual as I understand it. Bottom line is that they were installed incorrectly and the installer relied 100% on caulking to prevent water intrusion. This obviously wasn’t effective. Good news is that I caught it early and water damage isn’t too bad and there was no mold. Bad news is that the contractor is appearing less and less competent with the fix. Thus far the exterior walls have been opened up from under the roof to allow the walls to dry and the caulking has all been replaced to buy us time. Sometime in January we will address the main fix.

The front windows are the worst by far as the front windows on the second story butt up to the porch roof. Once water got behind the roof header it just started collecting. I’ve attached photos of our front second story, diagram of our current install, diagram of my proposed fix, and the steps I want the contractor to follow. A note on the diagrams, it’s intended to be a cut away, the tape will extend across the entire flange area and overlap the other tape runs. I’m also not a pro, just a semi handy person who knows how gravity and water flow. My wording may be strong in the steps but it’s warranted at this point based on the initial “fix” they proposed which was only flashing the bottom (see the attached photo of what was sealed back up as fixed).

EDIT: To be clear, there was no window flashing tape utilized in 2018 with the install. The contractor has since come back and added it in some areas and they have admitted a poor install. Improper installation is not being debated by the contractor, they’ve admitted fault.

We are willing to pay to do additional work that wouldn’t be typical or covered in a normal install since they’ll be removing siding to address rotten OSB. My letter of step by step instructions is written in a harsh manner. I intend to soften my delivery to them as they’ve been working with me. However, I wanted something ready should the need to escalate things occur. My main contact has agreed to be onsite day of repair at some point in the future to oversee the work. My main question to the experts is if extending the roof flashing as outlined is both appropriate and correct?

We understand this wouldn’t be spec’d in the 2018 install and are willing pay the additional cost as well as any cost for broken hardy planks.
IMG_0360.jpeg
Window Diagram Proposed Fix.jpeg
Window Diagram Current Installation.jpeg
IMG_0369.png
IMG_0370.png
IMG_0347.jpeg
Last edited by TinyCat on Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ricknez
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:18 am
Location: southern PA, north east MD

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#2 Post by Ricknez »

Installing from the outside is actually very common. The exterior trim looks to have water damage but that may or may not be the fault of the installer if aluminum capping wasnt included in the contract.

TinyCat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#3 Post by TinyCat »

Ricknez wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:00 pm Installing from the outside is actually very common. The exterior trim looks to have water damage but that may or may not be the fault of the installer if aluminum capping wasnt included in the contract.
That trim is actually from before the windows were replaced. The installer replaced with PVC trim and assured us of no OSB issues at the time of replacement. With replacement from the outside, what is typical for flashing? I ask because they did none.

Here’s a photo of the actual damage:
IMG_0339.jpeg
IMG_0350.jpeg

Ricknez
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:18 am
Location: southern PA, north east MD

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#4 Post by Ricknez »

You never answered the queation- Did you hire an actual window company or just some guy that works out of his garage?

TinyCat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#5 Post by TinyCat »

Ricknez wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:56 pm You never answered the queation- Did you hire an actual window company or just some guy that works out of his garage?
We hired a well reviewed licensed and insured window contractor to do the work. They do roofing, siding, and windows. Work was done by their employees and not subcontracted out. They are standing by their work thus far but every time they come out I lose faith in them further. We interviewed several and went with these guys because they didn’t sub out installs.

Ricknez
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:18 am
Location: southern PA, north east MD

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#6 Post by Ricknez »

Just an fyi. A majority of the time , a company that uses subs will provide better installations. Most often subs will demand a higher wage based on their proficiency and freedom to work for a few higher paying window companies opposed to being tied down to just one that may experience slow patches and not pay as well. Many times a good sub will have so much work by only one or two companies they are basically employees in a way.

TinyCat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#7 Post by TinyCat »

Ricknez wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:45 pm Just an fyi. A majority of the time , a company that uses subs will provide better installations. Most often subs will demand a higher wage based on their proficiency and freedom to work for a few higher paying window companies opposed to being tied down to just one that may experience slow patches and not pay as well. Many times a good sub will have so much work by only one or two companies they are basically employees in a way.
Ok but is my planed fix appropriate for the leaking windows? Primarily is it copacetic to run the extended roof flashing behind the lower nail flange?

User avatar
toddinmn
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:02 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#8 Post by toddinmn »

I think we need to walk this back a bit.
Need to be more precise on wording of contract, do the new windows have a nail flange . Better/more pictures of what was there and what it looked like before things were tore apart.

User avatar
toddinmn
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:02 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#9 Post by toddinmn »

Ricknez wrote: Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:45 pm Just an fyi. A majority of the time , a company that uses subs will provide better installations. Most often subs will demand a higher wage based on their proficiency and freedom to work for a few higher paying window companies opposed to being tied down to just one that may experience slow patches and not pay as well. Many times a good sub will have so much work by only one or two companies they are basically employees in a way.
This is irrelevant and hyperbole. Subs are used because it is much simpler for the contractor in most cases . I use a combination for that exact reason. The subs you use Probably have a crew of subs for that reason. Typically when you hire a window contractor, the sub it out to single sub contractors that has a crew of sub-sub contractors and sometimes they will have employees. In the end it starts at the top and it boils down to having a great general contractor.

TinyCat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#10 Post by TinyCat »

toddinmn wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:02 am I think we need to walk this back a bit.
Need to be more precise on wording of contract, do the new windows have a nail flange . Better/more pictures of what was there and what it looked like before things were tore apart.
I’m not quite sure what you’re wanting from the contract, happy to get you whatever wording/language you’re wanting. Unfortunately, I don’t have any additional photos of what it was like during the install as I wasn’t home (my wife was). The windows as I understand it have a nail flange which was not properly flashed/taped and is what I believe is the issue (perhaps I’m wrong here). I’m not privy to the window lingo so if there’s a good resource you’d recommend for me to do research I’m happy to learn.

As frustrated as I am with the company I will say they are trying to fix the issue rather than ignoring me. Because of this I’ve attempted to not reveal their identity, if they fix the issue right there is no harm no fowl I just want to make sure it’s right. Stuff happens and I’m not upset at the initial leak, where I’m getting annoyed is the people that keep showing up don’t know what they’re doing to fix it. (For example, they created a water egress area in the back windows and then caulked it closed).

Photos of how it currently sits as a temporary stop gap until after my daughter is born below. Single windows are all on the back, doubles are second floor front, triple is first floor front, and the corner is a picture of how all the others looked before they started mucking with a repair. It’s under the porch so hasn’t been touched yet since it’s well protected.
IMG_0371.jpeg
IMG_0372.jpeg
IMG_0373.jpeg
IMG_0374.jpeg
IMG_0375.jpeg
IMG_0376.jpeg
IMG_0377.jpeg
IMG_0378.jpeg

Ricknez
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:18 am
Location: southern PA, north east MD

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#11 Post by Ricknez »

You seem like a very nice guy and I understand the frustration. I give the company credit for trying to resolve the issue. It's hard to tell what or why you are getting water.
Did a different company install that siding ?

TinyCat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#12 Post by TinyCat »

Ricknez wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:24 am You seem like a very nice guy and I understand the frustration. I give the company credit for trying to resolve the issue. It's hard to tell what or why you are getting water.
Did a different company install that siding ?
I appreciate that. The water came in from the failed caulking around the trim. Once behind the trim it seeped behind the roof flashing for the porch. Then it hit the roof header and sat and rotted the OSB and some of the 2x4s. My goal is the reroute the water so that when the caulking fails again (because we all know it will) it’ll run out onto the roof until it can be caught and recaulked.

Siding is original to the home and was installed by the builder (Sausy Burbank if that matters). The window company did trim it back some to account for the wider PVC trim.

WindowsDirectCinci
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:46 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#13 Post by WindowsDirectCinci »

The first photo you show does has flashing tape...Just so we're clear you're asking them to extend the roof flashing up higher to go under the window nailing flange and tape. This is not something that would normally be done during window replacement. Unless it's in the contract to do so it shouldn't be their responsibility in my opinion. .... According to the photos and your drawing (assuming there is flashing tape per your first photo.) everything seems installed properly to me from my house. I would add that if it was my company in the situation, what I would do is have my crews and a manager on site to remove and reinstall one window. If that window was found to be installed incorrectly and/or not have tape then I would redo them all. We all take water intrusion very seriously as I assume this company does also, since they've came out to tried and make it right. But at the end of the day if the window is installed correctly it's installed correctly and they shouldn't be held accountable to redo and extend any part of the roofing.

I'll also add that my company has about 6 W-2 employee crews and 5-6 subcontractor crews that 99% exclusively work for us, I don't think there is any merit in saying one is going to do better work than the others, it all comes down to leadership at the main company and expectations set.

TinyCat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2023 3:08 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#14 Post by TinyCat »

WindowsDirectCinci wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:39 am The first photo you show does has flashing tape...Just so we're clear you're asking them to extend the roof flashing up higher to go under the window nailing flange and tape. This is not something that would normally be done during window replacement. Unless it's in the contract to do so it shouldn't be their responsibility in my opinion. .... According to the photos and your drawing (assuming there is flashing tape per your first photo.) everything seems installed properly to me from my house. I would add that if it was my company in the situation, what I would do is have my crews and a manager on site to remove and reinstall one window. If that window was found to be installed incorrectly and/or not have tape then I would redo them all. We all take water intrusion very seriously as I assume this company does also, since they've came out to tried and make it right. But at the end of the day if the window is installed correctly it's installed correctly and they shouldn't be held accountable to redo and extend any part of the roofing.

I'll also add that my company has about 6 W-2 employee crews and 5-6 subcontractor crews that 99% exclusively work for us, I don't think there is any merit in saying one is going to do better work than the others, it all comes down to leadership at the main company and expectations set.
So to clarify some items, they came out on Monday 12/18/2023 to open up the water damaged walls and assess the issue. Once the trim was removed there was NO flashing tape at all (unfortunately I wasn’t able to get a photo of this as I wasn’t watching their work as closely but I am not making it up. In fact the foreman came to me and said “this is called flashing tape, we didn’t appear to use this on the install”). They then attempted to install flashing tape but did so, in my opinion, improperly. They only ran it along the bottom and not the entire way along the bottom, only between the vertical trim pieces. (The exception to this is the photo I took, but as you can see, they didn’t run the vertical section more than 1 ft up.) I took a picture of the problematic corner that they “flashed” to show the holes that remain. The diagram titled current installation is accurate to what was installed in 2018 with no flashing. They then came out on Thursday 12/21/2023 and opened up one vertical section where it appears they may have added some flashing. So to be clear, yes there is now SOME flashing but it is not installed around all 4 sides of the windows.

All that being said, I agree that extending the roof flashing would not be typical of an instal and I would not/did not expect it to be done in 2018. However, since the siding now needs to be removed to properly replace the rotten OSB I am proposing this be done (I am willing to pay for this and not expecting this the be covered under the warranty for free). My question is, is this a proper thing to do in the first place and is it correct?

As I said, I am not trying to screw this company over. They have admitted to me improper installation and are attempting to fix it. My primary question to the window experts, is how do we properly fix it from here?

Wes41094
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:50 pm

Re: Input wanted on proposed fix for improperly installed windows

#15 Post by Wes41094 »

.

Post Reply