Milgard SunCoat Max

[wpnorton]

Has anyone heard anything about the new product by Milgard, SunCoat Max low-e insulating glass? This would be in addition to the low-e at $3/sq. foot. It supposedly came out a month ago.

They are claiming that it reduces solar heat gain 62.5% over ordinary single-coat low-e glass even a 34% reduction over two-coat low-e technology.

Let me know your thoughts please. We live in N. Cal and it is supposed to be 110 this week-end.

Do you think it is worth the extra cost?

[FenEx]

Sales gimmick. Other quality Low-E coatings provide great performance for their intended purposes... unless you live on the equator. Conduction would negate the difference.

[earwax]

http://www.cardinalcorp.com/products_coated_366/366.htm

This is Cardinal glass' new low-e. I bet a few more years and it will be standard because PPG, Gaurdian, and AFG will try to match it. I do not think it is worth the money.

People a few years ago used to say the same thing about the low-e squared too.

[FenEx]

I somewhat agree Earwax

The industry may or may not follow because it sounds good but the energy savings will not be noticeable. It is a sales advantage and little more. As I am sure you know quite well, energy (heat) will follow the easiest route available, and if you block the easiest radiant path, it will grab the next cab... being conduction. As most sealed IG units out West do not use insulating gas fills to retard this vehicle... it will drive in.

[wpnorton]

I received a call last night from the owner of the Milgard Installer who is offering the Sun Max on all 14 windows and french slider with additional laminate for $8,250. This is his bottom line price. Most of the qoutes are now about the same, so its just the company we feel most comfortable with. We are going with Milgard Classic based on the information provided on this discussion board.

I really appreciate all the information provided on this website. It is definitely bringing in a bidding war.

[InfoSponge]

wpnorton, do you have the NFRC-certified SHGC and VT numbers for those new Milgard products they showed you? That would probably be more useful than the marketing blurb Milgard produces, since they can't hide behind some vague comparisons.

[Cheryl (Fenessa)]

Earwax is correct - this is Cardinal's new product. You may have noticed that they recently changed the numbers on their coated products from 170 to 270, 172 to 272, and 140 to 240. This is the groundwork for their new product coming out next year that will start with "3". This is to designate the number of metal oxide coating layers on their products. The current coated products have 2 metal oxide layers and the new one has 3 layers. The last 2 numbers indicate the visible light number. The new product was to be propriatary to Milgard for the rest of this year if they met contracted volume commitments. The U-value is the same as the 200 series products, but the solar heat gain numbers are better - similar to the 240 product. This is an upgraded product for Milgard - not the standard "free" loe that they offer. At $3 a sq. ft. (gotta love that margin!) it is not too suprising that volume committments are hard to meet!

[InfoSponge]

Milgard doesn't appear to have updated their technical spec PDFs to include anything other than the old options of clear, PPG hardcoat, and Cardinal 172/272 LowE2, so I'm not sure what the exact changes to a whole window would be, but Cardinal claims that the changes from LowE 272 to LowE 366 results in something like this at the center of the window only:

272: SHGC: 0.41 / U-FACTOR: 0.25 / TDW: 0.55 / LIGHT TRANS: 72%
366: SHGC: 0.27 / U-FACTOR: 0.24 / TDW: 0.43 / LIGHT TRANS: 66%

Ceteris paribus, I assume a whole window should trend the same, to varying degrees. So VT goes down some, SHGC improves, u-factor improves a very tiny amount, and the % of general damaging radiation decreases. Once it becomes standard, great, but we'll see how many people want to pay extra for this benefit...

[Randy]

The new 366 is going to be huge in the South. Homeowners want the low SHGC of the 140, but once they realize that they will lose 60% of the light, they settle back to the 170. Now they will be able to have the low SHGC (.27) with 66% of the light.

[earwax]

Randy is correct. We will most likely see the largest volume at first in the South. That is where the largest volume of 140 is also. The heat from the sun is intense. Man, the sun is hot!

But again, this will become the new standard boys, so get ready. The price will fall and it will be something we are all proud to carry.

I was at the PCBC show in San Francisco the other day and talked to several manufacturers. They will almost all be making the available in the new pricebooks and offerings.

[Oberon]

In the north - who knows???

But, I agree with Earwax that in the south this will be the standard offering in just a few years. SHG performance equal to a dark tinted LowE but with much better VT.

Yesterday at lunch I was browsing through one of the industry magazines and there was an ad from Guardian talking about their "new" LowE coating - the one with great SHG numbers and better VT...they said it would be available shortly (can't remember what they called it).

So, as you said Earwax, just a matter of time until the price comes down because everybody will be offering it....

Cheryl, your point is well taken, but to be a bit more precise the "number" refers specifically to the number of layers of silver in the coating. Adding another layer of silver will result in adding another couple of layers of other metallic oxides as well...I would assume...depending on how they have configured their layers.

Standard LowE2 product (depending on manufacturer and on customer) generally will have anywhere from 7 to 11 layers of metal - of which 2 are silver. In this newer version of LowE, I haven't yet seen how many total layers are involved but I would guess at least a couple of extras as well.

And, adding an additional layer of silver to upgrade performance isn't just a matter of "hey Joe, let's add a layer of silver and see what happens?"

There are some very specific changes involved in the manufacturing process when making this sort of change and I would imagine that it is a much more involved process as well - just as changing from single silver to dual silver in LowE2 took a little while and involved some major modifications to the "works".

Be interesting to watch though...

[Shocker]

I'll bite. I'm almost done replacing all our windows with WoodClads. I have one rotten Pozzi window left to replace, a big, west facing, 8' x 7', 6 unit mull jobber that I'm replacing in the spring. This window has been a furniture fading, hot uncomfortable pain in the butt. I wanted more light than a tinted low e unit but also wanted max protection in the summer. The extra $168 or so on a ~ $2500 unit seems reasonable, and not enough to worry about if it is just a marketing ploy.

I've used their standard low-e in all rooms but the master suite, where we went with the tinted low-e. Been real happy with everything so far.

[squeege73]

I used to work for Milgard and was able to sit through a presentation on SunCoat MAX. The Cardinal rep pushed the main benefit of the product is the SHGC and hoe it related to cooling a house during the summer months. Cardinal estimates most air conditioners could be downsized a full "ton" because of the SHGC benefits. How that would benefit anyone that doesn't run their AC for 3-6 months is hit or miss, but the product definitely has it's purpose.

[Bella]

I actually have both the Sun Coat and now the Sun Coat Max. All my windows face South and West and the sun is very strong. I live in CA. The 2 sliding glass doors I purchased about 4 years ago have just the Sun Coat. Its terrible I continually find myself closing the black out drapes. The room is hot and very cold at night. I am happy that I orderd the same Milgard Thermally Improved withows for my entire home with the Sun Coat Max. We have not had them installed yet although I did place the window in the living room on the floor and can tell I will not have to keep closing the drapes and hopefully will not need window coverings at all. I can definately see the difference. I hear they make a room more comfortable and I can see why.