Another noise reduction question

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rmleer
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Another noise reduction question

#1 Post by rmleer » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:27 am

I've done a decent amount of google searching to try to find a good noise reduction window (heard the Milgard quiet line is very expensive) and I've got a question.
I'll be getting a quote soon to possibly replace my four WindowWorld Excrapibur sliders for the Simonton Impressions 9800.

Taken from the Simonton site, I asked for the
" 1” I.G. and Super Spacer® This upgrade combines double-strength ProSolar™ soft coat Low E glass, an Argon gas fill, the Super Spacer® solid silicone foam spacer and a 1” insulating glass unit. "

I also asked for all glass to be laminated.

I forgot to ask them about any options for differing thickness in the glass so what would be the recommendation?
Outer panes 1/4" Thk and Inner 1/8" ??
I also plan on getting a quote for some Gorell's.
I didn't want to take the $1320 loss so soon to replace these but the barking dogs are about to make me snap.

Thanks for any help.

windowmannjny
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#2 Post by windowmannjny » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:25 am

try the gorell windows with ARMOR glass, they seem to work the best at reducing noise, you will pay more, but they should work.

Bill
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#3 Post by Bill » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:15 am

The 9800 has a glass package called Super Sensor Plus that is 1” Super Spacer, Low-e/Krypton gas, laminate Glass inside and double strength glass panel outside.

This should do a good job in reducing noise.

Bill

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Windows on Washington
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#4 Post by Windows on Washington » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:12 pm

Most people do not require the need of a dedicated STC window. Most applications will do just fine if people utilize "offset" glazing. Offset glazing is basically differing thickness of glass in the window to get the maximum noise cancellation out of a given IGU (insulated Glass Unit). As Bill and windowmannj mentioned, a window with laminated glass will probably work just fine. Laminated glass does a nice job of canceling noise out and will probably put you in the low to mid 30's STC rating. By comparison, your exterior walls (if they are siding) are probably in the mid to high 30's.

Any window, although a window with great air infiltration numbers will help seeing as sound waves are carried on air, with laminated glass will do the job.

Good luck and do a search on here or about sound. I think Oberon has posted up some great information on the topic. He is a wealth of information on these technical subjects.

rmleer
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#5 Post by rmleer » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:06 pm

Thanks for the replies.
I was trying to take advice from reading Oberons posts and combine the airspace,laminated, and differing thickness.
So I can't get differing thickness with the Simonton but I can get the airspace and laminated part of it?

edit: ok I'm feeling a bit stupid.
So if I get a 1/8" dual pane window and one of those panes are laminated then the laminated pane would actually be thicker than the other because of the interlayer?
Or would it still come out as 1/8"
This is probably an ignorant question so sorry lol.

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#6 Post by Windows on Washington » Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:39 am

rmleer wrote:Thanks for the replies.
I was trying to take advice from reading Oberons posts and combine the airspace,laminated, and differing thickness.
So I can't get differing thickness with the Simonton but I can get the airspace and laminated part of it?

edit: ok I'm feeling a bit stupid.
So if I get a 1/8" dual pane window and one of those panes are laminated then the laminated pane would actually be thicker than the other because of the interlayer?
Or would it still come out as 1/8"
This is probably an ignorant question so sorry lol.
Yes. There are actually two panes of glass in the laminated layer with the PVB interlayer...so actually three layers total in that one pane of the sash. It would be thicker.

rmleer
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#7 Post by rmleer » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:37 pm

The 9800 has a glass package called Super Sensor Plus that is 1” Super Spacer, Low-e/Krypton gas, laminate Glass inside and double strength glass panel outside.

This should do a good job in reducing noise.

Bill
I have no idea how I missed the Super Sensor Plus package that you mentioned.

I just found what that looks like so now I feel dumber than yesterday. :lol:
I printed it out so now the lady should be able to tell exactly what I was talking about and wanting.

I may stop in tommorrow to ask if my quote looks reasonable.
Thanks again all.

rmleer
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#8 Post by rmleer » Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:23 pm

Sorry to double post but they couldn't find the Super Sensor Plus Glass package on their PC to give the quote for the 9800 Impressions.

I believe they did find an option for dual pane with a 1" SS, a piece laminated on one side that was 1/8 + 1/16 interlayer + 1/8 and the other piece would be 1/8. This package included argon.
So I guess that would make one pane .310, and the other .125 leaving me with just over half an inch airspace.
Is that the package?

Bill
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#9 Post by Bill » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:40 pm

Super Sensor Plus Glass is found in the glass options Glass Pkg: drop down menu. The window specification will look like this.

30" (T) X 50" (T) 9800 Impressions White Double Hung; Tip-to-Tip; BOX; 1'' IGU Thickness; Super Sensor Plus; Super Spacer; Low E Softcoat (Prosolar); Krypton Gas; Double Glazed; Laminated All Inside; Double Strength (1/8"); Half Screen Fiberglass Extruded Screen Mold; 00 No Reinforcement; Two Air Latches; Two White; Logo Lock; Regular Lift Handles; Head Expander; Sill Extender; Balance Covers; Glass Warranty (UI=80"); DP:25; Test Number=60504.02; U-Factor:.29; SHGC:.28; Unit qualifies for ENERGY STAR region(s): Northern, North Central, South Central, Southern


Bill

rmleer
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#10 Post by rmleer » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:44 pm

Thanks Bill
I just got my quote with some info.
I'm told the super sensor plus is not available in this region and if not, what are the major differences besides these lacking the krypton?

57" (T) X 49" (T) 9800 Impressions White Slider (XO); Tip-to-Tip; BOX; 1'' IGU Thickness; Sensor Glass - LowE Softcoat; Super Spacer; Low E Softcoat (Prosolar); Argon Gas; Double Glazed; Laminated All Inside; Double Strength (1/8"); Half Screen Fiberglass Extruded Screen Mold; 00 No Reinforcement; Two White; Logo Lock; Regular Lift Handles; Corrosion Resist Roller/Glide; Head Expander; Sill Extender; Glass Warranty (UI=106"); DP:20; Test Number=61121.02; U-Factor:.31; SHGC:.29; Unit qualifies for ENERGY STAR
region(s): Northern, North Central, South Central, Southern

Bill
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#11 Post by Bill » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:38 pm

The Krypton and the better U factor associated with the Krypton is the only difference but this would not effect the noise benefits you are interested in.

Bill

rmleer
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#12 Post by rmleer » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:46 pm

Should I push for the reinforcement on this window because of the size and laminated?

By the way, my quote was just over 600ea installed.

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Windows on Washington
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#13 Post by Windows on Washington » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:41 am

Lamination does increase the weight of the window quite a bit. No point in having extra strong glass and a potential weak spot at the sash rails.

Short answer...yes, I would. Especially considering it is about an 8 dollar option.

buddy
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#14 Post by buddy » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:37 am

Ok I need some education here too it seems. I understood that a TP/Kryton window was quieter than all of the above options. Please educate me.
Buddy

Bill
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#15 Post by Bill » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:09 am

Buddy:

Below is a past post from Oberon who has expertise in this area and on rare occasion contributes to the boards. The great thing about this forum is we get to share what we know and learn from others.

Bill




Posted by oberon (My Page) on Sat, Apr 29, 06 at 20:40

Your question poses several questions - and is good for a few comments as well.
First, argon or krypton fill does not effect the overall sound propagation perfomance of the window.

Second, the width of the overall airspace between the inner and outer lite is more important than the number of lites in the IGU. When you say that company B's product has an airspace of 1/2" in a triple pane do you mean overall airspace or do you mean 1/2" in each of the two pockets for an overall airspace width of 1"?

Third, LowE coatings have no effect on sound propagation...softcoat or hardcoat is an energy performance issue and not a sound propagation one.

Fourth, warm edge spacer is also an energy performance issue rather than a sound performance one.

I would be curious to hear why the salesman of company A suggested that more chambers is better for noise reduction - his reasoning behind that claim.

I am also a bit curious if there are other issues involved besides slamming doors. It seems a bit of an excess to replace several windows strictly for slamming doors - I am not criticizing, but rather asking if there may be other factors to take into consideration?

When dealing with sound-blocking performance of any object there are three things to consider - mass, damping, and stiffness.

When dealing with glass, stiffness is a given and there really isn't anything that you can do to affect that particular variable.

Mass, on the other hand, can be changed. It is possible to affect sound performance by increasing the thickness of the glass in the IGU. But, this method will have varying degrees of effectiveness depending on the particular frequency range that you want to attenuate (opposite of amplify). This is the area where folks generally think that triple pane will outperform dual pane due to the increase in mass. And, at some frequency ranges that is true. But, without going into LOTS of additional words, the mass of a single lite versus the combined effect of the overall mass of several lites, with airspace between them, is not the same thing and does not have the same perfomance values in comparison.

The last factor is damping and this is where laminated glass comes in.

Basically, laminated glass consists of two lites bonded together by placing a plastic interlayer between them. In a sound performance roll, the plastic interlayer reacts differently to the sound wave as it passes thru the material and causes an increase in sound transmission loss. A laminated product consisting of 1/8" glass x 1/32" plastic interlayer x 1/8" glass - 9/32" overall - will have about the same sound blocking ability as a piece of 1/2" monolithic glass. Obviously an advantage.

Lots of information for you to ponder...I hope it makes sense.







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