Simonton - to reinforce or not

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Stardog
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Simonton - to reinforce or not

#1 Post by Stardog »

I'm back again, asking another question as we finalize a quote for Simonton windows.

Previously a few members of this board have recommended that I should request "optional sash reinforcement" in the Simonton products. This has been an interesting path, that has led me to understand the following (quoted statements are from Simonton):

1. Simonton doesn't just have an "option" to add sash reinforcement, they must increase the "design pressure" requirements in order to get that feature. It is also not guaranteed.
- "if we increase the design pressure it may or may not reinforce the windows. we cannot automatically reinforce the windows."

2. There are trade-offs. Simonton uses Aluminum for reinforcement
- "the drawback of reinforcing the windows is that they remove plugs in the window frame which will allow more air flow through the window and will decrease the energy ratings and also allow more outside noise to come through the window"

Reinforce or not? Maybe one of you that recommends this option can arm me with the "magic words" I am not saying correctly to request this feature be added.

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Randy
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#2 Post by Randy »

In that case, no reinforcement if you are set on Simonton - as they’re not the most airtight window to begin with.

Stardog
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#3 Post by Stardog »

I found the magic words I suppose.

DP65 - this design pressure adds the aluminum reinforced meeting rail, and all rails (a9 reinforcement.) This also changes some drainage plugs which increase the AI numbers.

DP55 - this design pressure adds the aluminum reinforced rail (a2 reinforcement). Also changes the drainage plugs.

DP50 - this design pressure adds slotted drainage plugs which will increase the ai numbers, but won’t add the reinforcement.

DP25 - this design uses solid plugs and would prevent air from coming in the weep holes and up into the frame.


So my best options in the Simonton windows are either DP55 - with increased AI and meeting rail reinforcement, or DP25 with reduced AI and no reinforcement.

Bill
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Location: New Jersey

Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#4 Post by Bill »

Stardog unless this is a coastal application or in an evironment that gets exremely hot I would choose the DP25.

I'm in New Jersey and we always use DP25 with that product unless it's coastal. In 25 years we have never had leakage or structural issues.

Stardog
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#5 Post by Stardog »

Thanks bill. I ordered the DP55 on all the double hung and DP25 for everything else. We’re doing a full house replacement.

Im curious, why do people recommend adding a reinforced meeting rail for non-coastal installs? Is this a gimmick, or is there a real benefit?

My incentive was hearing that the DH sash would deflect or warp over time, so that motivated me. Is that it?

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toddinmn
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#6 Post by toddinmn »

That is one of the reasons , it also gives the locks something solid to screw into. It is usually recommended because it is considered an inexpensive upgrade. Many brands have the option to add it alone.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#7 Post by Windows on Washington »

+1.

Given the inexpensiveness of that option upgrade, it is usually a good thing to opt for if its an option.

masterext
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#8 Post by masterext »

Always reinforce if that option is available. The most vulnerable part of any window is the meeting rails and that happens to be where reinforcement is added. Anytime you can add structural integrity to a window without a heavy financial impact, it should be seriously considered.

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toddinmn
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#9 Post by toddinmn »

Would love to see what the air infiltration numbers are for each dp rating.

Stardog
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#10 Post by Stardog »

toddinmn wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 8:58 am Would love to see what the air infiltration numbers are for each dp rating.
Me too. Where is that info? It’s not on the label and the salesperson seems to have no idea.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#11 Post by Windows on Washington »

Here is what you can probably safely assume, the air infiltration ratings, logically, should never go up on the window without reinforcement. If anything, they should go down.

Also, the window with reinforcement should maintain a more consistent air number over the life of the window.

Stardog
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#12 Post by Stardog »

Thanks everyone. The order is placed. We are redoing our entire house with 27 Impressions 9800 windows in 17 openings. We upgraded to the aluminum screens and the 1” superspacer glass pack, and had all double hung windows reinforced at meeting rail except for two openings where the system would not allow the change due to the window sizes.

Will post pictures after install. Wife is very excited for the update to our house.

tru_blue
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#13 Post by tru_blue »

I realize I'm coming a bit late to the party - the previous posts were from last week - but I thought I'd revisit the issue with an additional thought or two. I visit semi-regularly but usually don't comment these days unless there is a point that hasn't already been expressed that's worth mentioning.

To me, a vinyl double hung should always include a reinforcement at the meeting rail (a.k.a. "checkrail"). For several reasons. First, the sash locks will then have something more solid to anchor into (with most reinforcement designs) instead of the vinyl extrusion only. I've seen sash locks that literally fell off of the window when trying to lock or unlock them because the holes in the vinyl were stripped out. Secondly, a reinforced meeting rail allows for less flex and therefore less air infiltration in higher windloads or gusts of wind, especially on wider sizes. Third (or should I say "thirdly?"), it helps avoid vinyl profile heat distortion, also known as "vinyl smile," which is when the bottom rail of the top sash starts to sag over time and it can appear to be "smiling" at you. This was more common in older, poorly designed first-generation vinyl windows, but it's still a thing none-the-less. Especially in darker colors. Adding a stiffener in the horizontal meeting rail prevents this from happening.

Last thought - with many brands of windows, when selecting a DP upgrade, it's not just the meeting rail that gets reinforced, it's also potentially the sides, and possibly the tilt latches are upgraded, and sometimes even the weatherstrip. The meeting rail reinforcement alone might not be enough to reach a certain design pressure rating. It would be more of a concern, at least to me, with DH windows over 5 feet in height. The stiffer the DH is, the less flex when you might have with those 40 MPH wind gusts, and less chance of water infiltration as well as air infiltration. As mentioned in previous posts, the tradeoff depending on the brand is that it can sometimes mean a slight drop in insulating value.

I applaud your choice of ordering windows with the reinforced meeting rails; good decision! :)

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Randy
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#14 Post by Randy »

Nice to see you back tru_blue, and good points.

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Windows on Washington
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Re: Simonton - to reinforce or not

#15 Post by Windows on Washington »

Holy Smokes....blast from the past.

What's up Tru!!!

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