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| Author: | rondog |
| Subject: | Remove or Keep the old metal frame???? |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-27 17:59:17 |
Getting conflicting info on whether to remove or keep (and install over) the existing metal (aluminum) frame......
Any thoughts from you experts?!?!??!
Rondog
| Author: | dealer |
| In Reply To: | Remove or Keep the old metal frame???? (posted by rondog) |
| Subject: | RE: Remove or Keep the old metal frame???? |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-27 18:40:45 |
We follow a simple rule that if we can replace it we do and if we can't we cover it up. Both systems are AAMA approved.
What is NOT approved is the screw and glue or jerk out method using a pry bar and a new window with no fin or a fin that has been removed. A new replacement window must have a fin, either a nail fin or a flush fin when replacing the original aluminum windows in a house that had been installed with a nail fin according to AAMA.
All this information is in the Installation Masters (AAMA) handbook and is probably available on their web site also.
Certification of installers is a growing trend among progressive window companies and old habits need to be updated. Lots of lawsuits about problems with mold and dry rot that won't show up for 8 to 10 years if installation is not done carefully, Resealing the vapor barrier and using the best caulking available are also extremely important. Good luck.
| Author: | TnAndy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Remove or Keep the old metal frame???? (posted by dealer) |
| Subject: | Curious..... |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-27 19:49:01 |
In a house with brick veneer over wood studs/sheathing, how does one put a replacement window with a nailing fin in the place of an aluminum window with a nailing fin when the brick covers the aluminum nailing fin ??
| Author: | E-z |
| In Reply To: | Curious..... (posted by TnAndy) |
| Subject: | RE: Curious..... |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-28 02:43:15 |
| Author: | E-z |
| In Reply To: | RE: Curious..... (posted by E-z) |
| Subject: | RE: Curious..... |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-28 02:46:38 |
As much as i would like to tell you to pull the frames and install your windows anyways and forget about it i just can't. Retrofit your windows if you have brick work around your windows there is no way getting around it. Do your homework and this discussion board is a good start.
Good Luck
E-z
E-z Windows
www.eazywindows.com
| Author: | TnAndy |
| In Reply To: | RE: Curious..... (posted by E-z) |
| Subject: | RE: Curious..... |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-28 12:19:49 |
Well, I ask this, because I've been installing vinyl replacements since the mid 80's.....and am somewhere around 30,000 units installed since then ( am slowing up in my old age). About 75% I'd guess replaced standard wood double hung windows, which is what the 3 1/4" depth on the frames was designed for, but the rest are replacements for aluminum and the occassional steel framed window.
We have virtually no stucco houses here.....it's either some type of siding ( wood, masonite, vinyl, aluminum) or brick veneer, with brick being the most typical of the age house that is getting windows replaced.
In every case, as well as every one I know in the area, the frames ARE pulled and the replacement window is set out to the old caulk line. I see NO WAY to set a window in with a nailing fin.....which is why I was asking how one does that, especially with brick veneer.
I see you guys in California talk about "retrofit" windows, which I take is some sort of different frame.....they ain't sold here.....you get either replacements with the standard 3 1/4" deep frame, or new construction in standard sizes with the fin. That's it.
Now if I left the frame, which is sticking back in the opening cavity about an 1 1/4" or so, and butted the replacment up to that aluminum frame.....the replacement is going to be back out from the wall plane an 3/4" or more on the inside......a trim nightmare......so this "retrofit" must obviously be some kind of window that eliminates that problem.....but again, no one here ever saw one.
| Author: | kris |
| In Reply To: | RE: Curious..... (posted by TnAndy) |
| Subject: | RE: Curious..... |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-28 16:47:56 |
This is only my opinion but retrofitting is the least expensive and easiest way to put a window in an opening. The problems arise when the bottom of the new frame is sitting on an existing narrow aluminum flange with no shim blocks to support the frame. take a 22 x 58 opening (drywall to drywall) with existing frame protruding a 1/2 to 1" (or even flush with the drywall or sill) and your window is all frame. bathroom windows look like the porthole of a cruiseliner. we've pulled frames 90% of the time for the 12+ years we've been in business and rarely have problems with leaks. we use osi quad on exterior and 1 out of 3 homes we install have no flashing around the windows. one more thing, that flat stock vinyl used to cover the gaps around the window is not attractive, especially butted together against a window corner mitre.
| Author: | E-Z |
| In Reply To: | RE: Curious..... (posted by kris) |
| Subject: | RE: Curious..... |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-29 00:11:00 |
While i agree that retrofitting makes a little window look like bunker window because of all the frame and flat trim, the truth is that pulling the frames without re-establishing the vapor barrier is the incorrect way of installing a window. I agree with you Kris that a window sitting in a narrow aluminum flange may create problems in the future if it's a big window that can be easily fixed by ripping some wood the height of the aluminum frame to shim all the sill. Retrofitting is not easier than incorrectly pulling the frames, you must insulate the cavity and trim it with flat trim then caulk not only the perimeter but the vinyl to vinyl seam with 100% silicone.
I know you work around the Sacramento and Bay Area so i strongly disagree that 1 out of 3 houses have no flashing i would say out of 100 houses 5 may not have flashing, even wood sets have flashing if you remove the stucco or brick moulding and get to your blind stop you will find the flashing paper over the blind stop. I did pulled frames when i started my career because the company i started working for use to pull the frames and it was easier and faster just pull the frames and install the window and do "1" bead of caulking. If you can get a building department to agree to your method of installing i stand corrected, but my money is on the retrofit method or new construction method as the only 2 acceptable ways of replacing a window. And the flat trim if you take your time can also be mittered to match the windows and oh yeah it takes more time.
E-z
| Author: | E-Z |
| In Reply To: | RE: Curious..... (posted by kris) |
| Subject: | RE: Curious..... |
| Posted At: | 2004-08-29 00:12:34 |
While i agree that retrofitting makes a little window look like bunker window because of all the frame and flat trim, the truth is that pulling the frames without re-establishing the vapor barrier is the incorrect way of installing a window. I agree with you Kris that a window sitting in a narrow aluminum flange may create problems in the future if it's a big window that can be easily fixed by ripping some wood the height of the aluminum frame to shim all the sill. Retrofitting is not easier than incorrectly pulling the frames, you must insulate the cavity and trim it with flat trim then caulk not only the perimeter but the vinyl to vinyl seam with 100% silicone.
I know you work around the Sacramento and Bay Area so i strongly disagree that 1 out of 3 houses have no flashing i would say out of 100 houses 5 may not have flashing, even wood sets have flashing if you remove the stucco or brick moulding and get to your blind stop you will find the flashing paper over the blind stop. I did pulled frames when i started my career because the company i started working for use to pull the frames and it was easier and faster just pull the frames and install the window and do "1" bead of caulking. If you can get a building department to agree to your method of installing i stand corrected, but my money is on the retrofit method or new construction method as the only 2 acceptable ways of replacing a window. And the flat trim if you take your time can also be mittered to match the windows and oh yeah it takes more time.
E-z