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| Author: | Cheryl |
| Subject: | Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-09 22:07:12 |
I have been shopping for windows and learning a lot from this site for months now. I have finally narrowed it down to Winstrom, Gorell 5300 and a Canadian made window that most of the experts on this site are not familiar with but seems to be a good window -- Vinylbilt. My delema is which to pick, each has a draw back, so, which is the better to go with when considering the following drawbacks.
Winstrom -- I like this window and sold on it except for it's drawback. It has the Super Spacer that I want, but drawback is AFG glass warranty is prorated after 10 years, and even further prorated after years 20 and 25. I don't feel good about a product that has to prorate their product.
Gorell 5300 -- Seems like a great window with good ratings and warranty but drawback is that it does not have the Super Spacer which is high priority for me. Wondering if this only factor should be a reason not to buy it?? I love everything else about the window but was trying to avoid getting a window that had warm edge intercept.
Vinylbilt -- Has all the things I am looking for in a window (Super Spacer, constant force balance, Cardinal 72 glass, good ratings and good warranty). Drawback is that I can not find enough experts that are familiar with it to help determine if it is as good of a window as it sounds. I am wondering if it is a quality window?
Please help if anyone can let me know where to narrow it from here and what to consider in doing so. Thank you in advance! Cheryl
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-09 23:01:31 |
Cheryl -
Have you done a comparison of VinylBilt vs. the others on the NFRC site? If not, doing so just might give you some good info.
| Author: | durantewindows.com |
| In Reply To: | Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 04:59:09 |
I don't know how much help this will be to you, but I am very familier with the Gorell 5300 series windows. It is not my main line window but it is a very good window, The one thing you left out of your comparisons of the three windows was price. Can you upgrade the Gorell 5300 to it Thermal master R-10 glass and still be in your budget?
If that dosen't work there is others out there, Suger Creek Industries makes a decent window with super spacer, constant force balances and non-prorated warranties, Great Lakes Uniframe windows are what I sell, though it does have warm edge intercept glass it is more than compensated by the fact that we offer it standard with triple pane R7.6.
Hope this helps
Jason
| Author: | Cheryl |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by durantewindows.com) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 13:58:16 |
Thanks Jason! The pricing I have are all within the same ball park, with the Gorell being a bit more than the other two, but, thats ok because I believe it is a great window. The Gorell is not the Thermal Master. I would have to ask about the Thermal Master price. I did check out Great Lakes but decided that I could get as good a window if not better for the cost. They were a bit more pricey. I am just not sold on the warm edge intercept. Thanks again Jason, Cheryl
| Author: | Cheryl |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 14:02:47 |
Yes Art I did, and all come in about the same. I know that you are a big fan of the Schuco window. I was going to go with them, but, I went to a house that had them and did not care for the difficulty of operation on their slider. I really had to muscle it. Thanks, Cheryl
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 15:28:01 |
Cheryl -
I'm really surprised to hear about the slider being difficult to operate. My install is being finished as I type this and while the installer did have to go back and make an adjustment or two on two of the sliders, they all operate very easily. My wife has stated that they're easier to operate than the old ones.
Anyway, good luck in your search.
| Author: | Jack |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 19:51:32 |
Cheryl, How old were the Schuco windows you looked at. They have redesigned them just recently. Try and see if you can find a new one to look at. The ones I have seen slide really well!
| Author: | JD@DWS |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 19:55:21 |
When dealing with a good quality window thats not operating well, it is usaully a installation issue, and can probably be adjusted with easy
| Author: | Bart |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by JD@DWS) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-10 23:19:53 |
Not really true. Manufacturer error is an option. The track could have been removed and installed backwards. Rollers could have broken out from the sah bottom, weatherstripping could be rolled over, a rock or some debris might be jambed in there. Lots of things can go wrong with the best windows. Don't be so hasty to blame the installer. Seems to be the way everybody reacts.
| Author: | DRL |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Bart) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-11 05:26:55 |
I assume a good installer would have discovered (and corrected) any existing manufacturer errors at the time of installation. The other things you mentioned sure could happen, but he didn't say those weren't possibilities - just that it's "usually an installation issue". If that's what his experience has been then his opinion is valid.
| Author: | Bart |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by DRL) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-11 15:27:01 |
DRL, I don't care how good you are at installing windows. Most of these issues are overlooked by most. Some even happen after the installer is done. If you've installed windows you know what I mean. The customer pulls them apart to clean and never puts it together right. I'm trying to bring out the fact there are other issues that can come up with out cutting the installers throat first. The dude is from a window company for crying out loud. Plus he's using that free advertising on every post. You'd think some one in the trade would post the obvious problems that could happen instead of blaming the installer. Where's Guy & Fenex? At least they answer the questions with out the BS.
| Author: | Yug |
| In Reply To: | Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-11 16:05:31 |
Cheryl, The Vinylbilt product out of Canada is a good product. We have used it in the colder climates for years. I feel Cananda is sometimes a step ahead of the US when it comes to glass and windows. We have never seen any manufacturing errors with product or glass. They have some great glass in the Super Spacer Premium Plus model. LoE Soft Coat with WHite Spacer. Nice Product. They are also one of the few offering multiple colors for your window. They only come with a fifteen year warranty though. I'd try the Vinylite!
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-11 16:27:50 |
Cheryl, the Schuco inline slider should not have had to be muscled ever.
This slider is one that really needs the close attention and skill of a qualified installer. It is not forgiving at all to sloppy or fast installation. For example, a bow of an eighth of an inch in the sill will totally throw off the easy operation of the window. When properly shimmed and installed, they do operate very easily and are a wonderfully designed and energy efficient alternative to the traditional slider. The way they close, which is like a casement window, gives them a much better seal than other sliders, plus there is no outer track for the rain to settle in.
I would have to say that your friends windows definitley need adjustment and/or reinstalled. Have her call her dealer, and if they can't figure out the problem, e-mail me and I will get the factory to help her directly.
| Author: | steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Bart) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 01:31:54 |
Better watch yourself Bart. You're "going against the grain". They'll try to chew you up into little pieces for doing that.
| Author: | Bart |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by steve) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 02:31:50 |
Why don't you mind your own business?
| Author: | Window4U (IL) |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Bart) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 03:15:27 |
I agree with Bart's post as far as most installs go, even though I addressed the question differently in my post, since I have direct knowledge of this window with me being a Schuco dealer. Industry wide, some window installations will always require tweaking because of a factory defect not evident during the original installation, but that will show up later,... like a roller that breaks soon after the job is done, like Bart said. Good advice Bart.
| Author: | steve |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Bart) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 12:57:17 |
And what business would that be Barf?
| Author: | Erin |
| In Reply To: | Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 13:34:58 |
In response to your request for advice on your new window purchase, I do have some insight on the Vinylbilt option. I have been working with this company for a number of years and have had nothing but positive experiences from what I'd consider a top notch company. In my experience, they have always put emphasis on the quality of their windows by utalizing the best products available in the market. Further, I have examined their windows and have spoke to customers who've purchased them and again the feedback is all positive.
Vinylbilt is a long standing company offering a quality window and I think you'd be more than satisfied with your purchase if you decided in their favor.
| Author: | Cheryl |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Erin) |
| Subject: | Erin and Yug RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 13:54:25 |
Thank you so much for the info on the Vinylbilt window. It sure sounded like a good window to me, but I have had a hard time finding anyone that knew anything about them or had some experience with them. Would you say that it is a high end vinyl window or a mid range? This helps a lot, Thank You!
| Author: | Cheryl |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Window4U (IL)) |
| Subject: | Windows4U RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 13:58:39 |
Thank you W4U, I thought something might be wrong, because I was quite suprised after all of the positives about Schucco on this site. Do you have any input on my original post regarding the Gorell, Windstrom and Vinylbilt windows question? I would be very interested in your thoughs if you care to give them. Thank You, Cheryl
| Author: | Windowtech |
| In Reply To: | Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 21:05:25 |
Cheryl-
I have personally met the owners of Vinylbilt. I have sold them components to be used in their window as well as machinery that is used to manufacture their windows.
They are extremely quality oriented and they make an excellent window.
Is not having Super Spacer a good reason to pass on the Gorell window? That depends upon how long you expect your windows to last.
Personally, I would never buy a window that is made without Super Spacer. The insulating glass unit is the heart and soul of any window design. The reason that we buy windows in the first place is to enjoy the view, and Super Spacer allows that view to be fog and condensation free longer than any other spacer system while helping to maximize thermal performance of the overall window.
I wouldn't stay home without it! :)
I would NEVER
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Windowtech) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 21:48:38 |
Had to jump in for a sec. Are you sure about that? Are you absolutely certain that Super-Spacer provides the best spacer? How are their applications governed to make such a claim? Do they stictly monitor those that use their system and procedures such as edge-deletion and two-part polysulfides or two-part polyurethanes instead of inexpensive moisture barring silicones which are more permiable by insulating gases... or will they sell their system to anyone willing to buy machinery and product? Are you sure? Why is Super-Spacer 40% by weight dessicant (an absorbant to hold infiltrating moisture)? A half ounce of dessicant in the pocket of a $2,000 leather coat can absorb and hide moisture until sale (everyone has seen it in the pocket(the lil' white packet). Of course they won't condensate or fog.
I welcome a polite and professional debate pertaining to this. Please answer the above questions and I'll be happy to answer any you may provide if I am able.
FenEx
| Author: | Windowtech |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-13 22:21:26 |
Fenex- i thought you departed...but welcome back! Edgetech does not sell Super Spacer to just any manufacturer. Before an IG or window fabricator buys his first reel of Super Spacer, an Edgetech sales rep and applications engineer visits, does a Production Survey, recommends the proper equipment, and prepares an equipment quotation. Once the equipment arrives and is set up, Edgetech sends technicians to train the fabricator on proper application techniques. A complete Quality Audit is performed covering everything from glass cutting, edge deletion (if necessary), glass washing, application, sealant selection and sealant application. This QA audit, by the way, is completed several times per year on a continual basis, and not just at start-up. Edgetech has a recommended list of approved sealants, and if it was ascertained that a fabricator was using a silicone sealant with Super Spacer, then Edgetech would simply choose not to sell to that fabricator. However, the company has just launched a new version of Super Spacer, called Tri-Seal, which has PIB pre-applied so that use of a silicone sealant is permitted. This allows their Tru-Warm spacer to also go into structural glazing applications. Why is there 40% (by weight) desiccant in the product? The reason is because the company wants the window to fall apart before the IG unit would ever fog. This is one of the reasons that Super Spacer is the best (there are many more), and you can ask any fabricator who uses it, and he will tell you that the failure rate is virtually zero.
| Author: | Cheryl |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Windowtech) |
| Subject: | Windowtech RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 16:02:04 |
Thank you for your informative reply. It sounds like I am making a good choice if I go with this window,yes? Would you consider Vinylbilt windows to be a mid or high end vinyl window? Also, what other windows is it comparable to and how do you think it compares to Winstrom? I am glad that you, Erin and Yug have replied with such positive comments about Vinylbilt. It confirms what I felt about the product, but, I was lacking people in the field that had knowledge and experience with Vinylbilt,so, I thank you again!
| Author: | Cheryl |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Windowtech) |
| Subject: | Fen Ex :) RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 16:05:04 |
Fen Ex, Good to hear from you again! Just wondering if you have a reply to windowtech on this issue. I would love to hear it...as always. Miss your posts...Cheryl
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Windowtech) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 18:57:22 |
Thanks for the reply tech. I'll look for the Tri-seal. Don't get me wrong, when properly applied, I like Super Spacer. The reason for all my "Are you sure" comments in the previous posts is the main downfall in it's use so far. They make recommendations of sealants and edge-deletion... but it's not mandatory. Companies like Polybau and a few others always edge delete... and it serves them and their customers well. Others, which I won't mention, do not... to cut production costs. It's no secret, and I am sure that you must agree that it's a much better way to go. It's also well known that the secondary seal is extremely important especially with a product like S.S. who's primary is an "acrylic adhesive" and not much of a sealant at all.
The "Are you sure" comments pertain to any customer... how can they be sure what methods are being used by "their" S.S. window provider? Is it their responsibility to have to check? The best spacer used with a 99% or better gas fill doesn't need 40% dessicant unless they are anticipating seal failure and gas leakage to be replaced by air containing moisture (fog/condensation). If you keep the gas in... you keep the ambient air and moisture out and the I.G. unit performs the same on the 20th year as it did on the first. The government agencies and the window industry are soon to change their definition of "seal failure" to include gas leakage... not just obstruction of vision as new testing methods are now available. I have posted articles relating to this in past. I think it's great.
FenEx
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | Fen Ex :) RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Cheryl) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 19:44:18 |
Thank you Cheryl... you are very sweet.
| Author: | Oberon |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 22:12:31 |
Welcome back FenDude!
| Author: | La Ventana Cuatro Usted |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by Oberon) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-14 22:42:17 |
FenEx!
La bienvenido apoya a mi amigo bueno. Querria comprarie una cerveza.
No salga jamás otra vez ni yo lo cazaré hacia abajo y aplastaré una ventana sobre la cabeza.
| Author: | Windowtech |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 13:38:46 |
I'm not seeing the downfall. Super Spacer has been on the market for 15 years and it's track record in field performance is second to none! As far as edge deletion goes, each glass supplier has their own recommendation, and any glass or window fabricator should follow the recommendation of his glass supplier. Edgetech, of course, doesn't make the glass so they just make sure that the Super Spacer adheres well to both edge deleted and non-edge deleted surfaces, which it does. How can customers be sure that proper methods are being used by their window fabricator? The proof is in the quality of the finished product. One cannot be 100% sure with any product, even if one makes it himself. But the history and reputation of the fabricator is a good indication, and in this industry, word spreads fast. As far as the 40% desiccant goes, it has absolutely nothing to do with argon retention. Argon permeates out of an IG unit at a rate independent of the inward permeation of Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen or H2O vapor. This is based upon the Law of Partial Pressures. Each gas behaves independently. If a unit experiences seal failure, 40% desiccant will not buy much time at all. The 40% desiccant is there to provide a long long lifetime for an IG unit that is made with any of the recommended sealants given standard workmanship practices. Super Spacer units also do very well when it comes to Argon retention. Units have been tested using the Gasglass unit, and results indicate excellent argon retention. Super Spacer units pass the DIN standard for Argon retention.
| Author: | Steve G. |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by Oberon) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 15:05:10 |
FenEx --
I am so glad to see you back -- even if only temporary! You guys are more help than you know.
Steve
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by Oberon) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 15:08:47 |
Sup Oberonic one... been enjoying your posts lately as always... impressive.
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by Steve G.) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 15:10:18 |
Thanks Steve... I appreciate it sir.
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by La Ventana Cuatro Usted) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 15:17:07 |
Dave... you need to lay off the Learning Channel... but I think I see beer in there so it's all good... and thanks.
| Author: | Art |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 15:17:53 |
Ok, that's it! It's time to do a takeover - hostile or otherwise. I propose that from this time forward the name of this channel be permanently changed to "Ask Fen Ex" and that his minions (Window4U, Oberon, Guy, Windowmann2000 & others) receive due credit also.
All in favor?
Fen Ex - Just a little fun here - it's very good to see you back :)
And as for that guy Guy........ It's very good to see you back too!
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... (posted by Art) |
| Subject: | RE: Fen Ex :) Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 15:22:42 |
LMAO Art !! Sounds like the job is going well... I had no doubts. You got the right product and the right installer... congrats to you sir. From my reads, you and the others mentioned have had things well under control without my participation... I've enjoyed the posts... and thanks.
| Author: | FenEx |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by Windowtech) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-15 17:29:40 |
Interesting response... see... this is fun.
We are actually agreeing in some ways but not to anyone else reading this... LOL. As for edge-deletion, it's proven to be more effective in maintaining a seal, that's why it's used by TPS, Cardinal and in many cases by others. We weren't discussing adherance of a spacer... we were discussing the best spacer. The concept of an I.G. is to insulate, these days with the use of dense, inert gases. If you can't keep them in... the efficiency deteriorates... plain and simple.
I realize that S.S. makes recommendations, but as you have stated again, they make a spacer, not the glass or the finished product and have limited control over what ends up in a home. You are absolutely correct, a dessicant has nothing to do with argon retention, the spacer seal has everything to do with it. The dessicant serves one purpose, to absorb infiltrating moisture so the glass doesn't "fog", if you consider that providing long-life to the intended purpose of an I.G., I'd disagree. A seal by definition is to provide a "tight and perfect closure as against the passage of gas and water" -Webster-
Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures relates to independent movement of different gas molecules when introduced together in a contained space. Isn't the purpose of a great spacer to eliminate that meeting in the first place? Edgetech paticipated in previous Gasglass P1 testing, and was unhappy with the results... they even contested them blaming possible manufacturer error.
This was a good debate and sharing of views... thanks. I am not disputing that Super Spacer is anything less. It appears to be a super "spacer". I'll look forward to it's mandatory usage with it's counterpart, a super seal system. Now that will be a great marriage... everytime... not some of the time.
FenEx
| Author: | Windowtech |
| In Reply To: | RE: Help from the experts please... (posted by FenEx) |
| Subject: | RE: Help from the experts please... |
| Posted At: | 2004-09-23 16:48:12 |
You seem to be intent about casting doubt about the ability of Super Spacer IG fabricators to consistently fabricate quality windows with the product. Well, the proof is in the pudding, and the product has a field track record second to none.
As far as Edgetech disputing the GasGlass P-1 testing...I wrote an article for DWM reporting the results. Edgetech did not dispute the results. I don't see why they would, since Super Spacer units had the highest argon percentages after the P-1 exposure.