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 Post subject: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:14 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:06 pm
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I've got extended a demo/estimate by a local Wisconsin dealer for THV Compozit windows, and these forums came up prominently in Google searches for reviews. I see several from 2005 and 2008 questioning the company's reported ratings, and mentioning that the THV company has gone bankrupt twice.

I'm just posting to check and see if those reviews are still accurate, or if the company has turned around since then. I do see on the NFRC directory that THV does have some windows that are certified (like this double-hung model), and going with the Krypton-filled, Low-E coated, Triple-pane models, you do seem to get U-factor numbers in the 0.16-0.21 range, no?

However, the quote I got for three windows (two double-hung, one lite slider, with wood trim, all triple-pane, Krypton-filled, Low-E coated) was for $5,100 (about $1,170/window), which seems abnormally high, even for these high-end composite windows. I did see one discussion thread mentioning Starmark windows by OKNA as another composite window that was comparable. Are there any others that are durable composites that have cropped up in the last few years? Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:17 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:02 pm
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Wood trim on the interior ,exterior or both? What species of wood is it? What profile is the wood? Is it stained,painted, unfinished,or wrapped in aluminum? Does this job include RRP charges? Is it a full framed window replacement? What type of siding is on the exterior?Are these windows all on the third floor?Are you going to watch or help?Such questions as these and more would have to answered to get the pricing a little closer. I don't know what window is better but Okna will get the nod on this forum.Why are you choosing to go with a composite?


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:37 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:06 pm
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toddinmn wrote:
Wood trim on the interior ,exterior or both? What species of wood is it? What profile is the wood? Is it stained,painted, unfinished,or wrapped in aluminum?

The windows themselves are the THV Composite material, and we opted on the interior to have the wood veneers added. They're not real wood veneers, but rather a high-end printed sticker that goes on the inside faces.

toddinmn wrote:
Does this job include RRP charges?
Not familiar with that acronym...

toddinmn wrote:
Is it a full framed window replacement? What type of siding is on the exterior? Are these windows all on the third floor? Are you going to watch or help?
The quote is to leave the interior window sill in place, and replace the full window from there outward. Aluminum siding, all three are on the third floor of a split-level home (so a floor and a half above ground). I'll just be watching.

toddinmn wrote:
Why are you choosing to go with a composite?
Moving away from wood for my newborn daughter's sake; she's got Cystic Fibrosis, which makes her susceptible to airborne contaminants, and the 15-year old wood windows we have now are starting to be a black mold magnet. Plus, getting a more complete air seal from the outside (we've got a few windows that let in ants) would help keep contamination out. So, looking at vinyl and composite replacement options. Not liking to do lots of home maintenance, or replace the windows again in the near future, the long-term warranty on the composite window was attractive.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:01 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 am
Posts: 3347
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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midnightlightning wrote:
toddinmn wrote:
Wood trim on the interior ,exterior or both? What species of wood is it? What profile is the wood? Is it stained,painted, unfinished,or wrapped in aluminum?

The windows themselves are the THV Composite material, and we opted on the interior to have the wood veneers added. They're not real wood veneers, but rather a high-end printed sticker that goes on the inside faces.

toddinmn wrote:
Does this job include RRP charges?
Not familiar with that acronym...

toddinmn wrote:
Is it a full framed window replacement? What type of siding is on the exterior? Are these windows all on the third floor? Are you going to watch or help?
The quote is to leave the interior window sill in place, and replace the full window from there outward. Aluminum siding, all three are on the third floor of a split-level home (so a floor and a half above ground). I'll just be watching.

toddinmn wrote:
Why are you choosing to go with a composite?
Moving away from wood for my newborn daughter's sake; she's got Cystic Fibrosis, which makes her susceptible to airborne contaminants, and the 15-year old wood windows we have now are starting to be a black mold magnet. Plus, getting a more complete air seal from the outside (we've got a few windows that let in ants) would help keep contamination out. So, looking at vinyl and composite replacement options. Not liking to do lots of home maintenance, or replace the windows again in the near future, the long-term warranty on the composite window was attractive.



RRP refers to the EPA Lead Paint rule. Have they identified lead paint on or around the windows?

All good vinyl or composites are going to have a lifetime warranty.

I would take a look at the Starmark product as well if you are going to stay with the composite family. It is better built than the THV in my opinion.

Make sure that your installer proper seals up the envelope when the new windows go in and you may want to look into a window that has a tighter Air Infiltration rating so that you HVAC system is doing a complete filtration and air loss in and around the windows is minimal.

If you daughter lung condition dictates cleaner air, I would also look into air sealing and insulation of the home. These will both help with the temperatures and the air quality in the home.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:48 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:17 am
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THV windows are made of something called Expanded Polymer Composites (EPC). I did some rough research (not a material scientist) but it appears that EPC is foamed PVC or the bubbles of PVC hardened to form a window. In essence, THV Compozit is PVC or vinyl which does not make this a composite other than other types of vinyl or plastics.

I read in an article entitled "137 Things Window Companies Won't Tell You about Vinyl", no manufacturer's vinyl is superior to another's - vinyl is vinyl. There may be differences in the way a product is engineered but the US Dept of Energy, Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Consumer Reports, MIT and Brown University Environmental Studies Dept, Fenestration Magazine, and Energy Efficient Building Association all state that any vinyl window that is not reinforced with steel or aluminum will bow, twist, warp, stretch and contract causing the seals and corners of the windows to fail. Regardless of the vinyl or manufacturer, PVC softens and expands at ~158 degree F. This high expansion coefficient applies to all PVC foamed or solid!

You may get a great U value or R rated window but all that goes away if the window distorts because it does not resist heat and cold stress. All vinyl windows MUST be reinforced or they will fail! If you don't believe this, call any state consumer protection agency and you will find their number one home improvement complaint involves vinyl replacement windows.

THV gave me a quote of $2,000 per window for 20 windows or ~ $40,000 for my home. All windows less than 100 UI.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:44 am
Posts: 538
Location: South Jersey, Delaware, Philadelphia area
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When I'm installing windows atop volcano condos we normally switch to aluminum framed windows .


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:00 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:14 am
Posts: 815
Location: New Jersey Window Pro- Northern NJ and Central NJ
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jubbean2
you send like you sell renewal by andersen. the window that is mostly vinyl with saw dust mixed in so they can call it a composite. its also the window that has average efficiency numbers and is ourtrageously priced.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:20 pm
Posts: 272
Location: North Florida
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Delaware Mike wrote:
When I'm installing windows atop volcano condos we normally switch to aluminum framed windows .


Mike, you should use Tungsten windows if you want a real window to stand the heat.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:19 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:06 pm
Posts: 16
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i know im not an expert at these things but if it was 158 F outside in wisconsin to melt his windows off wouldnt we all have greater concerns? i mean thats 22 degrees ever the highest natural temp recorded on earth (1922 in libya btw) i understand that when i lived in west texas if a car was left in the sun during a 110 degree day a cd on the dashboard magnified by the glass would melt ... but a modern vinyl windows? <shrugs> maybe i dont understand things but it sounds like a scare tactic to me.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:20 pm
Posts: 272
Location: North Florida
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If you put a vinyl window in a car with the windows rolled up, and left it in the sun, in Texas, on the hottest day of the year, and no one is around.... does it make a sound?

Two totally different issues with that logic, scare tactics at their best.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:30 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 am
Posts: 3347
Location: DC Metropolitan Area-Maryland/Virginia/DC
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Jubbean2 wrote:
THV windows are made of something called Expanded Polymer Composites (EPC). I did some rough research (not a material scientist) but it appears that EPC is foamed PVC or the bubbles of PVC hardened to form a window. In essence, THV Compozit is PVC or vinyl which does not make this a composite other than other types of vinyl or plastics.

So is the Okna Starmark. Look at that window if you want a comparison. Welded window construction as well compared to the screws in the THV.

I read in an article entitled "137 Things Window Companies Won't Tell You about Vinyl", no manufacturer's vinyl is superior to another's - vinyl is vinyl. There may be differences in the way a product is engineered but the US Dept of Energy, Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Consumer Reports, MIT and Brown University Environmental Studies Dept, Fenestration Magazine, and Energy Efficient Building Association all state that any vinyl window that is not reinforced with steel or aluminum will bow, twist, warp, stretch and contract causing the seals and corners of the windows to fail. Regardless of the vinyl or manufacturer, PVC softens and expands at ~158 degree F. This high expansion coefficient applies to all PVC foamed or solid!

Glass systems are designed to move independently of the frame materials. This is nothing new as glass expands and contracts at different rates than wood or aluminum. You don't see the curtain walls of glass in commercial buildings failing.

You may get a great U value or R rated window but all that goes away if the window distorts because it does not resist heat and cold stress. All vinyl windows MUST be reinforced or they will fail! If you don't believe this, call any state consumer protection agency and you will find their number one home improvement complaint involves vinyl replacement windows.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried on this point. Feel free to post up an real factual information vs. conjecture.

Are you a consumer or just promoting a product?


THV gave me a quote of $2,000 per window for 20 windows or ~ $40,000 for my home. All windows less than 100 UI.


Are you a consumer Jubbean2?


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:46 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Posts: 1488
Location: Northern Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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midnightlightning,
There is a pro on this site named Homesealed that is a Starmark dealer in Wisconsin. If you want to see Starmark, click on the "Quote" button in his profile and you will be put in contact with him. That is, if you are in his territory.

You'll find him in this thread:
http://www.replacement-windows.com/windowbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4792


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:38 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:46 pm
Posts: 1761
Location: Milwaukee & Madison area
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Jubbean2 wrote:
...call any state consumer protection agency and you will find their number one home improvement complaint involves vinyl replacement windows...

I don't know whether this is true or not, regardless, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of complaints are regarding sales practices and service issues with the installation companies. Just look up window companies on the BBB and you'll see that those are the overwhelming majority of complaints.

I don't think the THV product is bad, nor is it anything special. What I don't care for is the use of lies and scare tactics to promote a product.


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
Posts: 1488
Location: Northern Illinois, Chicago suburbs
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Jubbean2 wrote:
THV windows are made of something called Expanded Polymer Composites (EPC). I did some rough research (not a material scientist) but it appears that EPC is foamed PVC or the bubbles of PVC hardened to form a window. In essence, THV Compozit is PVC or vinyl which does not make this a composite other than other types of vinyl or plastics.

I read in an article entitled "137 Things Window Companies Won't Tell You about Vinyl", no manufacturer's vinyl is superior to another's - vinyl is vinyl. There may be differences in the way a product is engineered but the US Dept of Energy, Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Consumer Reports, MIT and Brown University Environmental Studies Dept, Fenestration Magazine, and Energy Efficient Building Association all state that any vinyl window that is not reinforced with steel or aluminum will bow, twist, warp, stretch and contract causing the seals and corners of the windows to fail. Regardless of the vinyl or manufacturer, PVC softens and expands at ~158 degree F. This high expansion coefficient applies to all PVC foamed or solid!

You may get a great U value or R rated window but all that goes away if the window distorts because it does not resist heat and cold stress. All vinyl windows MUST be reinforced or they will fail! If you don't believe this, call any state consumer protection agency and you will find their number one home improvement complaint involves vinyl replacement windows.




What a bunch of lying and misleading crap from top to bottom. People like you coming on here pretending to be consumers and putting out garbage like this to sell their non-vinyl products are really the "#1 home improvement complaint".


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 Post subject: Re: THV Compozit windows
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:17 am
Posts: 4
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I am not a salesman. I am a homeowning consumer trying to discern what is factual from what is "marketing". Of all the windows I have seen to date from the parade of salesman thru my home, the THV Compozit window has been the best engineered unit I have seen. The reviews of homeowners in my area for those windows have been excellent. I thought the Pella, Anderson, Alside, and Atrium products that I have seen have not even come close in appearance and engineering. Frankly, they don't look much different from the windows I have that are structurally compromised and failed. I only wrote to this forum because I could not justify from an intellectual or economic standpoint why the THV Compozit window should cost $2,000/each for replacement windows of less than 100 UI each.

I will gladly be wrong about my earlier assertions. The answer lies in the thermal expansion coefficient (TEC). The value for PVC (vinyl) is 28 (10-6 in/in oF). What is the TEC for Expanded Polymer Composite?

I was giving my opinion based on what I read not trying to convince anyone to buy anything but trying to help myself understand and select the best replacement window for my home.

I wish I could show you pictures of all of the vinyl windows in my home that are bowed, twisted, and leaking air. All of the windows leak so badly I had to stuff insulating foam in the openings to block the air to keep it reasonably warm in my home.

When I purchase replacement windows, I don't want to have to revisit these issues of window failure in another 10 years.


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