Heat Mirror
Let me make sure I have this correct..............Randy wrote:What happened to TAH? He was really hot on telling everyone how great heat mirror is, and now that several posters have actually described their real life experiences with the product, TAH has vanished.
This is your first post on this thread and you felt the need to "call someone out" for not defending themselves?
If only we had more valuable contributors like yourself what a wonderful, fact-filled and learning environment this would be!
FYI #1: I never told anyone here "how great Heat Mirror is". I have no agenda within these forums other than to learn. Yes, I sell Heat Mirror and believe it to be a good product (today). There are a LOT of products we buy today that we avoided 5 to 10 years ago because the "bugs" had not been worked out. Have the "bugs" been completely worked out of Heat Mirror? I don't know. I'd like to think so.
Schuco who (almost) everyone here says is the best is updating their seal warranty to include gas leakage. Apparently they too are still trying to improve the product. Why is it hard to believe Heat Mirror has not done the same?
FYi #2: What do you consider "several posters"? Less than five? I've stayed on top of this thread and read good and bad. I'm not going to argue with the posters in an attempt to defend my OPINION. That's all it is, an opinion.
FYI #3: I also have an opinion of those who do NOT contribute but merely try to "stir things up". I won't voice it here, for reasons of good taste.
Now you know I haven't gone anywhere.
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!
Hurd Windows
I have a home with Hurd InSol-8 Heat mirror windows and almost every window seal has failed. Do I have any recourse. They were installed in 1993.
Heat Mirror
Let's review. In your first posting on heat mirror, you stated "I simply cannot find a website where folks are complaining about Heat Mirror failure. The most Heat Mirror problems I've ever found are is this forum and the majority of those are "I think I remember hearing" or "I seem to remember someone telling me" and so forth. Not what I'd call "real world" experiences."
Then in your third posting; "Please tell me the "key words" you enter into Google to find "plenty" of folks complaining about Heat Mirror. I'm looking for ordinary homeowners, not corporate finger pointiing." Then you had to tell us how smart you are; "My education consists of an EE degree." As though this would impress anyone. I'm certainly not impressed.
Next; "I don't know why Anderson & Marvin passed on Heat Mirror. I also don't know for sure they did pass. No one here seems to know that this is a fact, all comments so far sound like rumors. I do know that if these two did decide to not use Heat Mirror it doesn't carry a lot of weight with me."
So apparently what you believe is fact, and anything anyone else has to say is rumor or you just choose not to believe it.
My point is this. You have an obnoxious tone to your postings, and it is obvious that you know very little about the window industry. As is typical with many window sales people, you know what you've been told by the company you work for. As soon as some "real world" experiences were posted, you scurried away from the topic.
As to your sense that I do not contribute, but merely stir things up, as usual you seem to run your mouth, or in this case, your keboard, before you know what you're talking about. Since you are a degreed individual, I trust you can figure out how to search for my past postings, and see whether or not I have contributed at all.
I will admit that I do not post as much anymore, but that is because I have figured out that Windows4U, FenEx, Oberon, and Guy, along with several others know more about windows than I could ever learn. Anyway, enough on this topic, unless you would like to tell us all about your days at MIT and about your GPA.
Then in your third posting; "Please tell me the "key words" you enter into Google to find "plenty" of folks complaining about Heat Mirror. I'm looking for ordinary homeowners, not corporate finger pointiing." Then you had to tell us how smart you are; "My education consists of an EE degree." As though this would impress anyone. I'm certainly not impressed.
Next; "I don't know why Anderson & Marvin passed on Heat Mirror. I also don't know for sure they did pass. No one here seems to know that this is a fact, all comments so far sound like rumors. I do know that if these two did decide to not use Heat Mirror it doesn't carry a lot of weight with me."
So apparently what you believe is fact, and anything anyone else has to say is rumor or you just choose not to believe it.
My point is this. You have an obnoxious tone to your postings, and it is obvious that you know very little about the window industry. As is typical with many window sales people, you know what you've been told by the company you work for. As soon as some "real world" experiences were posted, you scurried away from the topic.
As to your sense that I do not contribute, but merely stir things up, as usual you seem to run your mouth, or in this case, your keboard, before you know what you're talking about. Since you are a degreed individual, I trust you can figure out how to search for my past postings, and see whether or not I have contributed at all.
I will admit that I do not post as much anymore, but that is because I have figured out that Windows4U, FenEx, Oberon, and Guy, along with several others know more about windows than I could ever learn. Anyway, enough on this topic, unless you would like to tell us all about your days at MIT and about your GPA.
Re: Heat Mirror
Let's review. In your first posting on heat mirror, you stated "I simply cannot find a website where folks are complaining about Heat Mirror failure. The most Heat Mirror problems I've ever found are is this forum and the majority of those are "I think I remember hearing" or "I seem to remember someone telling me" and so forth. Not what I'd call "real world" experiences."
At the time this was indeed true. Only later did we have postings with "real world experience"
Then in your third posting; "Please tell me the "key words" you enter into Google to find "plenty" of folks complaining about Heat Mirror. I'm looking for ordinary homeowners, not corporate finger pointiing."
This was in response to a poster who claimed to find "plenty" of complaints when using Google. I still have not been told how to find these "plenty" of complaints. Can you?
Then you had to tell us how smart you are; "My education consists of an EE degree." As though this would impress anyone. I'm certainly not impressed.
Certainly taken out of context. This was meant to demonstrate an area of expertise whick allows me to see just how wrong Consumer Reports can be. I used this to demonstrate that when they address electronics I can't believe how far off they are, therefore why would I accept them as the definitive guide to anything? A poster claimed they said Low-e & argon out-performed Heat Mirror. Kind of hard to believe, don't you think?
Next; "I don't know why Anderson & Marvin passed on Heat Mirror. I also don't know for sure they did pass. No one here seems to know that this is a fact, all comments so far sound like rumors. I do know that if these two did decide to not use Heat Mirror it doesn't carry a lot of weight with me."
So apparently what you believe is fact, and anything anyone else has to say is rumor or you just choose not to believe it.
Once again these posts sounded like rumors NOT facts. I don't believe everything I read on a forum, do you?
My point is this. You have an obnoxious tone to your postings, and it is obvious that you know very little about the window industry. As is typical with many window sales people, you know what you've been told by the company you work for. As soon as some "real world" experiences were posted, you scurried away from the topic.
I guess 15 years in the industry has left me ignorant. If so I apologize. As to having scurried away as you suggest, hardly. I have a life and things to do.
As to your sense that I do not contribute, but merely stir things up, as usual you seem to run your mouth, or in this case, your keboard, before you know what you're talking about. Since you are a degreed individual, I trust you can figure out how to search for my past postings, and see whether or not I have contributed at all.
I did use the search button and found you have contributed, to other threads! In this one you came out of the woodwork and attacked me! This was your first post on this thread, and you have the stones to talk about my tone??????
I will admit that I do not post as much anymore, but that is because I have figured out that Windows4U, FenEx, Oberon, and Guy, along with several others know more about windows than I could ever learn. Anyway, enough on this topic, unless you would like to tell us all about your days at MIT and about your GPA.[/quote]
Hope you feel good about this tone. Did you really think this was doing anyone any good. One mention of a degree and I'm some kind of jerk? I think you missed the point and jumped in with an attack accusing me of scurrying away as though in shame. Is this somehow being less of a jerk than than you think I was?
At the time this was indeed true. Only later did we have postings with "real world experience"
Then in your third posting; "Please tell me the "key words" you enter into Google to find "plenty" of folks complaining about Heat Mirror. I'm looking for ordinary homeowners, not corporate finger pointiing."
This was in response to a poster who claimed to find "plenty" of complaints when using Google. I still have not been told how to find these "plenty" of complaints. Can you?
Then you had to tell us how smart you are; "My education consists of an EE degree." As though this would impress anyone. I'm certainly not impressed.
Certainly taken out of context. This was meant to demonstrate an area of expertise whick allows me to see just how wrong Consumer Reports can be. I used this to demonstrate that when they address electronics I can't believe how far off they are, therefore why would I accept them as the definitive guide to anything? A poster claimed they said Low-e & argon out-performed Heat Mirror. Kind of hard to believe, don't you think?
Next; "I don't know why Anderson & Marvin passed on Heat Mirror. I also don't know for sure they did pass. No one here seems to know that this is a fact, all comments so far sound like rumors. I do know that if these two did decide to not use Heat Mirror it doesn't carry a lot of weight with me."
So apparently what you believe is fact, and anything anyone else has to say is rumor or you just choose not to believe it.
Once again these posts sounded like rumors NOT facts. I don't believe everything I read on a forum, do you?
My point is this. You have an obnoxious tone to your postings, and it is obvious that you know very little about the window industry. As is typical with many window sales people, you know what you've been told by the company you work for. As soon as some "real world" experiences were posted, you scurried away from the topic.
I guess 15 years in the industry has left me ignorant. If so I apologize. As to having scurried away as you suggest, hardly. I have a life and things to do.
As to your sense that I do not contribute, but merely stir things up, as usual you seem to run your mouth, or in this case, your keboard, before you know what you're talking about. Since you are a degreed individual, I trust you can figure out how to search for my past postings, and see whether or not I have contributed at all.
I did use the search button and found you have contributed, to other threads! In this one you came out of the woodwork and attacked me! This was your first post on this thread, and you have the stones to talk about my tone??????
I will admit that I do not post as much anymore, but that is because I have figured out that Windows4U, FenEx, Oberon, and Guy, along with several others know more about windows than I could ever learn. Anyway, enough on this topic, unless you would like to tell us all about your days at MIT and about your GPA.[/quote]
Hope you feel good about this tone. Did you really think this was doing anyone any good. One mention of a degree and I'm some kind of jerk? I think you missed the point and jumped in with an attack accusing me of scurrying away as though in shame. Is this somehow being less of a jerk than than you think I was?
I'm not a salesman, but I play one on TV!
Do you remember what kind of sealant was in use at the time? Was it a tar swiggle?windowrx wrote:We were sorely disappointed however when the high incidence of seal failure became apparent. It put a serious strain on both manufacturers (and us!) as not only did they have to cover the huge number of warranty claims, they also both were heavily invested in the product by having dedicated glazing facilities for Heat Mirror.
Quantum carries a line of windows that uses it. We are considering it to replace some windows in our home as their vinyl windows are solid, closed-cell foamed, use polyisobutyl sealant and the warranty is ok. The HM line is marketed as a light-wight triple glazed (double glaze with interior HM film.) The contractor's warranty extends to parts and labor for replacement in case of seal failure, but makes no mention of curling, wavyness or other distortion and discoloration of the HM film.windowrx wrote:Until I read this thread I thought that Heat Mirror had mostly gone away.
So my question is: Were the issues with previous products mostly related to seal failures or chemical interactions between the sealant and the film? Or just defects in the materials themselves?
Sorry for the delayed response nuvector, I haven't checked in here for a while.
Neither Hurd nor Four Seasons were using swiggle with Heat Mirror. They used a dual seal on a metal spacer. I don't recall if the spacer was aluminum or stainless steel and I'm afraid I don't know what the sealants were. There was a tacky seal on the side of the spacer that may have been some type of butyl and then the final edge seal which was either silicone or a similar material.
Other than seal failure we didn't have too many other problems with Heat Mirror. Occasional wrinkles near the corners but never any kind of "reaction" between materials.
My guess would be that the seal failures were caused by two things. Having the two spacers required to sandwich the HM film in the IG unit plus potential heat buildup between the panes (since heat would pass through the outer pane before being stopped by the HM film). All this together may have caused too much movement and thermal stress which could break the seal and allow moisture in.
Just my guess.
Neither Hurd nor Four Seasons were using swiggle with Heat Mirror. They used a dual seal on a metal spacer. I don't recall if the spacer was aluminum or stainless steel and I'm afraid I don't know what the sealants were. There was a tacky seal on the side of the spacer that may have been some type of butyl and then the final edge seal which was either silicone or a similar material.
Other than seal failure we didn't have too many other problems with Heat Mirror. Occasional wrinkles near the corners but never any kind of "reaction" between materials.
My guess would be that the seal failures were caused by two things. Having the two spacers required to sandwich the HM film in the IG unit plus potential heat buildup between the panes (since heat would pass through the outer pane before being stopped by the HM film). All this together may have caused too much movement and thermal stress which could break the seal and allow moisture in.
Just my guess.
Thought I'd chime in here. I've done a lot of research on Heat mirror.
The Hurd disaster was not caused by heat mirror. The Hurd windows didn't have quality seals. When a seal fails, a window fails... only heat mirror fails very badly, when the seal fails nothing holds the film in place anymore and it wrinkles. Either way you're window fails, just more dramatically with heat mirror.
It brings up an interesting point: how well does an average window company seal their windows, since descicants will cover up the failure in a typical window for a long time. Hurd treated heat mirror like they treated their glass, just a tiny bit of sealant - but Southwall specs 4mm of sealant! I haven't seen any other window comapny use anything close to that much. A good heat mirror window will probably outlast a typical window because its seals are comparitively overbuilt.
Heat mirror has a long history. Its been in production since 1979. And some of the companies that specialize in it have been doing it since then without problems. It is used primarily in commerical windows, again an indicator of its durability. It doesn't yellow.
It has a couple unique capabilities compared to triple pane: lower UV transmission, more low-e options, and the ability to make quad igus with R values up to R12-15.
The Hurd disaster was not caused by heat mirror. The Hurd windows didn't have quality seals. When a seal fails, a window fails... only heat mirror fails very badly, when the seal fails nothing holds the film in place anymore and it wrinkles. Either way you're window fails, just more dramatically with heat mirror.
It brings up an interesting point: how well does an average window company seal their windows, since descicants will cover up the failure in a typical window for a long time. Hurd treated heat mirror like they treated their glass, just a tiny bit of sealant - but Southwall specs 4mm of sealant! I haven't seen any other window comapny use anything close to that much. A good heat mirror window will probably outlast a typical window because its seals are comparitively overbuilt.
Heat mirror has a long history. Its been in production since 1979. And some of the companies that specialize in it have been doing it since then without problems. It is used primarily in commerical windows, again an indicator of its durability. It doesn't yellow.
It has a couple unique capabilities compared to triple pane: lower UV transmission, more low-e options, and the ability to make quad igus with R values up to R12-15.
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researcher
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:39 am
[QUOTE]..It has a couple unique capabilities compared to triple pane: lower UV transmission, more low-e options, and the ability to make quad igus with R values up to R12-15.
I heard that the Heat mirror cancels out more sound then triple pane because of the Heat mirror is a dissimilar material from glass, but I do not know if this is a fact. But I do wonder, (if this is true); is it canceling out sound transmission similarly to laminated glass?
Maybe someone can say more about this sound transmission in windows with Heat mirror.
I heard that the Heat mirror cancels out more sound then triple pane because of the Heat mirror is a dissimilar material from glass, but I do not know if this is a fact. But I do wonder, (if this is true); is it canceling out sound transmission similarly to laminated glass?
Maybe someone can say more about this sound transmission in windows with Heat mirror.
The information I could find gave this comparison of Sound Transmission Class (STC) ratings:
Standard double glazing IGU: 34
1" heat mirror IGU: 36
1" heat mirror IGU, 1 lite laminated: 39
1" heat mirror IGU, 2 lites laminated: 43
Not sure how those figures compare to the numbers you've got.
Regarding Superglass Quad, the manufacturer's web site suggest a maximum r-value of 12.5 (.08 u-value).
Standard double glazing IGU: 34
1" heat mirror IGU: 36
1" heat mirror IGU, 1 lite laminated: 39
1" heat mirror IGU, 2 lites laminated: 43
Not sure how those figures compare to the numbers you've got.
Regarding Superglass Quad, the manufacturer's web site suggest a maximum r-value of 12.5 (.08 u-value).
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researcher
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:39 am
Id be interested as well (triple pane IGU, with and without differing gaps between the middle and outer/inner panes). Our Schuco triple panes have quieted down the train that goes behind our house a LOT.
Id like to see how much quieter Heat Mirror could have been or if they are on par with each other (I wasnt sure if Heat Mirror is suspended in the center of the panes, because Ive heard differing spaces between the panes helps cut down on noise even more......also not sure if it makes a difference with Heat Mirror because its not really a pane of glass).
-Chris
Id like to see how much quieter Heat Mirror could have been or if they are on par with each other (I wasnt sure if Heat Mirror is suspended in the center of the panes, because Ive heard differing spaces between the panes helps cut down on noise even more......also not sure if it makes a difference with Heat Mirror because its not really a pane of glass).
-Chris
STC
For comparison - STC values:
1/4" monolithic - STC 31
1/2" monolithic - STC 36
1/4" monolithic laminated - STC 35
3/8" monolithic laminated - STC 36 - 37 (construction dependent)
1/2" monolithic laminated - STC 38 - 39 (construction dependent)
3/4" monolithic laminated - STC 41
1" IGU - STC 35
1 1/2" IGU - STC 37
single laminate IGU -
1" - STC 39
2 7/16" - STC 45
1 11/16" - STC 47 (construction dependent)
dual laminate IGU -
1 1/16" - STC 42
1 13/16" - STC 46
Triple glazed IGU (no laminate) -
1 3/4" - STC 39
1 13/16" - STC 44
As I have mentioned many times, I am not a fan of STC as it is used. It is not the best system available and any numbers associated with STC should not be looked at without a certain degree of understanding how the numbers were derived.
1/4" monolithic - STC 31
1/2" monolithic - STC 36
1/4" monolithic laminated - STC 35
3/8" monolithic laminated - STC 36 - 37 (construction dependent)
1/2" monolithic laminated - STC 38 - 39 (construction dependent)
3/4" monolithic laminated - STC 41
1" IGU - STC 35
1 1/2" IGU - STC 37
single laminate IGU -
1" - STC 39
2 7/16" - STC 45
1 11/16" - STC 47 (construction dependent)
dual laminate IGU -
1 1/16" - STC 42
1 13/16" - STC 46
Triple glazed IGU (no laminate) -
1 3/4" - STC 39
1 13/16" - STC 44
As I have mentioned many times, I am not a fan of STC as it is used. It is not the best system available and any numbers associated with STC should not be looked at without a certain degree of understanding how the numbers were derived.
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windowmann2000
- Posts: 345
- Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:16 pm
Heat Mirror has a long history..........of problems. Now that you've done all that research please tell me why Four Seasons had the same problems at the same time we were replacing all those Hurd IG's. Never mind I know.........they were low on sealant.
Heat Mirror has a bad track record and it will take years for them to get back into the ball game.
Heat Mirror has a bad track record and it will take years for them to get back into the ball game.