Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

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Oberon
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#61 Post by Oberon »

My question to the pros here, is this "industry standard" a thing?

Yep, it's real.

They are probably using ASTM C1036* Standard Specification for Flat Glass as the guideline for their denial of warranty on the two flaws that you found in your windows.

Without seeing the windows in person, I can't really comment on their objectivity in applying the specification, but if the flaws aren't visible at 6' (normal to the glass and without special lighting conditions) as you describe then I would say that their interpretation does sound valid to me.

*edit....I inadvertently typed 1936 when it should have been 1036 and I missed it when I posted. Sorry for confusion!!
Last edited by Oberon on Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oberon
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Location: East of the Mississippi

Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#62 Post by Oberon »

attempt to edit typo in the original post, but somehow managed to make a new one...
please disregard
Last edited by Oberon on Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sirty
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#63 Post by Sirty »

Oberon wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:46 am My question to the pros here, is this "industry standard" a thing?

Yep, it's real.

They are probably using ASTM C1936 Standard Specification for Flat Glass as the guideline for their denial of warranty on the two flaws that you found in your windows.

Without seeing the windows in person, I can't really comment on their objectivity in applying the specification, but if the flaws aren't visible at 6' (normal to the glass and without special lighting conditions) as you describe then I would say that their interpretation does sound valid to me.
Very helpful, Oberon, appreciate you providing the exact code.

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HomeSealed
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#64 Post by HomeSealed »

+1.
With that said, most companies will warranty products that reach a lower threshold than that standard in the name of customer service. I have a hard time telling someone to pound sand if a defect is clearly visible standing in front of it even from a couple feet. Those that do get the "industry standard" treatment are the ones where you need to be standing at a 23 degree angle approximately 31 inches from the window, while bent down slightly to the left, and only visible between 3:09 and 3:11 pm on a sunny day within one month of the vernal equinox.

Two additional thoughts:
- On the one that you can touch, we've had great result with cerium oxide buffing compound to remove scratches and scuffs. You could ask if they are willing to try, otherwise you can find on amazon. I like to use a buffing wheel on a drill motor. You just want to be careful not to overheat the glass, or remove too much material where it causes distortion that's more noticeable than the scratch was to start with.

- Going back to defects generally speaking, I should mention as a caveat to my initial comment, manufacturers are denying more and more defects under warranty these days (with industry standard) due to the fact that these types of defects are at an all time high. High demand and low supply is affecting QC without question. One manufacturer I know of actually needed to switch glass suppliers(per request of the supplier) due to rejecting too many pieces of glass. I've personally sent back glass with minor defects two and three times in a few cases only to get the replacement with a defect that was even worse.

Once again, this is not to make excuses for your installation company, I have no idea whether or not they are giving you awful service or its just an unfortunate situation, but I just wanted to add insight.

Sirty
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#65 Post by Sirty »

I appreciate you providing additional context, Homesealed. I, too, hoped they would replace simply from a customer service standpoint, especially the one with the 3-inch defect between the panes and especially, especially because of all the issues I've had to date.

After install, when I noticed the number of defects on somewhat premium windows, I had a similar thought on QC. I ordered windows during a pandemic when demand is high and supply is low along with trying to find workers to actually work. I would guess they're trying to pump out as much as they can and have become more lax in their QC as a result.

Hoping Entry Point and I can come to an agreement. Only time will tell.

Oberon
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#66 Post by Oberon »

I retired before the SHTF, but prior to that I spent about the last 10 years of my career as the quality and technical manager at at residential window glass factory and I had more dealings with "industry standard" than I would have ever wished for.

Although no longer directly involved, I have also heard that quality has taken a major hit as companies face worker shortages, material shortages, shipping delays, etc. When you are already weeks or even months behind in production, it's really difficult to tell your customer that you are going to be late on something because of a minor or questionable flaw, especially when in many cases the product will be used in an application that the minor flaw isn't really going to be a concern.

In my years as quality manager, I don't recall anyone ever using the term industry standard to refer to anything that we inspected and honestly I don't like the term industry spec and in my mind i hear it as an excuse. That said, we did have quality specifications, and one could legitimately argue that they mean exactly the same thing, that quality standard is simply a euphemism for industry standard, but in my mind I don't see them being the same thing.

I mentioned ASTM C1036 (not 1936, sorry about that!! Damn fat finger), and while 1036 was a guideline, to us it was like building code, it was the minimum requirement allowed and not the product that we wanted to send out the door. I had the (non)pleasure of drafting and updating the quality specification that we used not just for our plant but also for other plants in the same division that we were part of.

Our requirements were tighter and more specific than 1036, but ultimately could allow glass with certain minor flaws to leave the building. The best way to look at it was that the specification was the quality level that we could adhere to at the price-point of the product that we were producing. More expensive products had a tighter specification and less expensive products had less stringent specifications, but the intent was never to say that it was okay to intentionally produce lower quality, it was to say that while you always did your best there was a realistic understanding that minor flaws could happen and if they did what was realistically acceptable. And sometimes we flat out missed it. Hate to say it, but it happened.

At the top end we produced glass products that even a single 1/32" flaw in a 25 sqft sheet would result in rejection, but those type products were priced accordingly to reflect special handling, special inspection procedures, and even the potential for a percentage of rejects was built into the cost.

As quality manager something that I would tell my inspectors if we were looking at something that was on the edge of acceptable/not acceptable was to ask themselves would I want this in my home? And sometimes we would send product to the customer and let them decide if it was acceptable or not in their application. There were even times when I released product that wasn't in specification because I knew the ultimate application and I knew that the flaw that we were seeing would be totally acceptable in that specific application.

There were times I gave credit for rejected glass that was technically in specification, and times I flat out said no.

Those that do get the "industry standard" treatment are the ones where you need to be standing at a 23 degree angle approximately 31 inches from the window, while bent down slightly to the left, and only visible between 3:09 and 3:11 pm on a sunny day within one month of the vernal equinox.

Sirty, you might see HomeSealed's comment as being an exaggeration to be funny, and it was(!), but like I am sure of every pro who posts on this site, I have been involved with situations not far removed from what he said. I have visited homes for consumer complaints that required me to be there during a certain date window, between certain hours, and under specific weather conditions in order to view the flaw because outside of those requirements, there was nothing to see! It wasn't just one time, it was many times!

The oddest one that I remember was for a consumer who rejected two patio doors that had been installed FIVE years earlier, because they discovered that when lying on the floor in the dark at night, with the doors partially opened and the porch light on, with a clear night sky, they could see distortion in the glass. The window company rep APPROVED the reject and requested credit for the cost of replacement. I politely told him to pack sand.

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#67 Post by TheWindowNerd »

This is interesting to me.
I just got my first resistance to a claim of of defective glass from my primary vinyl window company. I am in the middle of it and not sure of the resolution.
It cost us time, energy, and customer good will to have to deal with this. None of those is cheap.
I guess it is another covid issue to deal with.
theWindowNerd

Oberon
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#68 Post by Oberon »

If you don't mind sharing, what sort of flaw are you seeing that is being denied credit?

When I approved or denied credit, it was to the window company or other entity but not to a homeowner, that would be the window company responsibility.

I do recall one instance where I approved credit to a window company yet they denied it to the homeowner...

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TheWindowNerd
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#69 Post by TheWindowNerd »

I will move this discussion to the contractor section and title it QC denial.

Sirty
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#70 Post by Sirty »

Oberon,

Thank you for your replies. The patio door rejection story you shared is wild. I'm not quite that anal. :lol:

While the Verde series certainly isn't top of the line, I wouldn't call it bottom shelf either. I may be expecting too much, but my eye's tend to catch imperfections. Here's a list of the imperfections that did not meet "industry standard" for replacement:
  • There's a 1/4" defect in two of the windows that can be felt. If you run a cloth or paper towel over them while cleaning it will catch/snag the cloth.
  • There's a 3" defect between the panes in the guest bath picture window. Given this one sits above the shower and faces the sky, it's easy to see the imperfection.
BTW, Entry Point came out last Monday to install the two remaining windows. They sent out someone with a little more install experience it would seem. The process went much smoother and the installers did a much better job, so much so, that the capping, specifically, is noticeably different. I've now requested the same installer come back out to re-do the prior capping job so it all looks the same.

While they were here, they did replace one of the panes with a 1/4 defect because they had an extra window the same size due to ordering the incorrect window for my job prior. This was not a "replacement", just something they could do under the circumstances.

Sirty
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Re: Window Replacement - South of Atlanta

#71 Post by Sirty »

So the saga finally comes to a close. Entry Point sent out the same crew as they did for the last two windows and they replaced the capping on the remaining windows to match. It all looks much better now. There is a crease in the middle of one of the capping surrounds, but at this point I don't have the energy to even bother with it. The aforementioned defects I'll also have to live with, but it's just part of the experience at this point.

For future reference, when anyone searches for Entry Point, I would strongly encourage you to look elsewhere.

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