Is this to be expected?

[jdthird]

I have a Gorell door (6300, ecomaster glass package) that was installed just two years ago.

The very first winter I noted moisture INSIDE the door, on the panes' inner surfaces. The installer tried to convince me it was my imagination, that I took a bad photo or something because they didn't believe there was moisture on the inside of the panes.

A couple days ago I saw this , and sent them a photo of it.
ftp://anonymous:@69.128.119.43/dsc00482.jpg

(FTP shortcut above works with firefox, but it didn't work with IE, so if needed you can just go to ftp://69.128.119.42 and username is anonymous no password)
I have an HRV and the house was between 30 and 35% humidity (per Ecobee thermostat, a Honeywell thermostat, and a hygrometer I have that I usually keep in the basement in the summertime). I'm being told by the installer that again, this isn't abnormal. Is it seriously expected to have this much frost and ice this far inside of the frame?

I've seen other posts in this forum about seal problems with Gorell, and I'm assuming I'm dealing with a similar substandard door despite the $2300 price tag...

Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.

J

[masterext]

In my experience Gorell had a low seal failure rate. Based on your description and the pic, it seems as if your issue has to do with humidity..i personally dont think its the door.
Anther thing to consider, a high quality/ air tight door will not leak air. What happens, moisture can stay inside where it can build up a bit on the glass. Its normal and a sign the windows were installed properly.

[uncle eddie]

need more info, but not entirely out of the oridinary.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5450
What was the temperature outside?

[Windows on Washington]

Do you have a picture of the interior portion of the glass in reference to your early point about seal failure? If the seal on the IGU goes bad, they don't get good again and the moisture and Low-e failure will be progressive and more visible.

With respect to the frost you are seeing, we have seen it here and not surprisingly...more on the tighter homes. I am not sure where you are located or what the temps are but even in an area that is traditionally mild like the DC area, we have been getting calls about frost and condensation. On the nights where we were getting into the single digits, those are when the ice/frost calls kicked in.

Depending on where you are and what the temps are, 30% is still too high and especially when you have a tighter envelope. You will get frost in those areas where some air infiltration is unavoidable.

The majority of the calls that we were getting on the frost end of things were folks that have heavy drapes in front of their windows. If you have drapes, you have to keep them open enough to get some convective circulation.

At least the frame material in this case is vinyl and that little bit of frost won't degrade the frame or finish.

Post up some more of the climate details and I will try to give more directed feedback.

[jdthird]

Wow, I'm shocked that it's normal to have frost 4 or 5 inches INSIDE of the unit. I had no idea these things were that poorly insulated from the outside, to the point the inside frame freezes that much? Even the full metal frame and track in the house I grew up at in the 70's never got this much frost on it, and it was single pane 1967 built equipment. But this is too many people telling me that doors shouldn't have any insulation.

Alright, I'll have to adjust my expectations - even my horrible windows that I haven't replaced yet have never gotten frost on the frames. It just struck me as an utter fail of some sort, but apparently not...

Kind of wish I hadn't replaced the french doors with these though - those never had issues like this obviously, but I hated how the one opened right into where I keep my dining room table.

Disappointed in Gorell, but I guess I have to face the facts that this is acceptable.

Don't have curtains in front of the window, just vertical blinds that are never closed.

Thanks guys.

John

[Windows on Washington]

John,

What type of temperatures are we talking about?

There is actually an issue that comes from a tighter window. The window or door that may have been their previously could have cured its own problems with additional air leakage.

When a window or door leaks air, it allows a pathway for the moisture around that opening to exhaust and dry to outside.

You never answered my question about the shades or blinds. When we see larger sections of frost, it is usually the result of poor indoor air circulation at the window.

Post up some follow up and I will try to comment with feedback.

[jdthird]

Actually I answered the questions about shades or blinds quite explicitly in my previous reply.

Don't know what the temp was that day, but I'm not worrying about it, I'm just going to let it go and accept it as it is. For me, it's just tough to wrap my head around this on the frame (but I can understand it on the glass fine so I guess I just extend that farther now in my head) but that's why I posted here where people who know this stuff could help my ignorance. If those in the know said that it's something that's been seen when there's not a failure, and so far the few replies have all been "seen that, no biggie, expected sometimes," then I'd be pretty foolish to not believe them. No different than how I joke with my employees about when a client pays us to come out and consult in IT matters then flat out go the opposite way anyway because they know better...

So thanks for the posts everyone. I'll just lower my humidity even more and ride out the rest of the winter.

John

[Windows on Washington]

Actually I answered the questions about shades or blinds quite explicitly in my previous reply.

Don't know what the temp was that day, but I'm not worrying about it, I'm just going to let it go and accept it as it is. For me, it's just tough to wrap my head around this on the frame (but I can understand it on the glass fine so I guess I just extend that farther now in my head) but that's why I posted here where people who know this stuff could help my ignorance. If those in the know said that it's something that's been seen when there's not a failure, and so far the few replies have all been "seen that, no biggie, expected sometimes," then I'd be pretty foolish to not believe them. No different than how I joke with my employees about when a client pays us to come out and consult in IT matters then flat out go the opposite way anyway because they know better...

So thanks for the posts everyone. I'll just lower my humidity even more and ride out the rest of the winter.

John

I misspoke above. I meant to ask are their drapes or shades in front of the door, not the window. It is a door pictured with the frost and that is what I meant to ask about.

It is counter-intuitive to think of the glass being the more insulated section but the further you get away from the edge, the better the performance is. This is why less reputable companies quote COG (Center of Glass) U-Values. The window is least thermally resistant at the edges and at the frame in most cases because it is thermally bridged to the outside.

This is where we typically see condensation and frosting. Lower edges of the window/door and at the meeting rails.

Thanks for the update and please post up any other questions.