Marvin Ultimate wood interior/aluminum clad exterior

[wingal]

I see some of you are familiar from another forum. Please pardon the cross posting, but I just found this forum. I'm trying to get as much good information that's not from sales people as I can.

I continue my quest for replacement windows for my home in the Denver, CO area (mile high altitude). I'm trying to narrow down the window options, but I continue to be confused.

I'm considering the Marvin Ultimate wood interior/aluminum clad exterior, because I can get the colors I want both inside and out. I also love the look of wood. My home has all natural wood trim inside.

We need 13 windows. Most will be double hung. We have one or two picture and may do one or two as casement (egress issues).

However, I keep hearing that wood windows require a lot of maintenance. I'm not clear on what that maintenance entails, so I'm turning to you folks.

If the exterior is aluminum clad and the interior has a natural wood finish, what do you have to maintain? How often?

Also, are Marvin Ultimate good windows? I want good quality, as we plan to stay in this house forever.

I see several glass options, so we'll select something that gives us decent U values. I can't seem to find anything on air infiltration. How are these window in that area?

In case it matters, I'm currently considering Sunrise (not Vanguard, but I gather those two are really the same), Ply Gem Premium Series, and Great Lakes EcoSmart, all with decent glass packages (not necessarily the top of the line, but a notch or so down).

I suspect I'll have more questions about those vinyl window options, but I'll stick with my Marvin wood window questions for now.

Thanks for any information you can offer!

[masterext]

For air tightness, the Sunrise wins. Assuming its Restorations, Vanguard, or something with composite sash reinforcement and a foam filled frame.
Marvin Ultimate is a very nice window but it needs to be properly maintained.

[wingal]

Thanks, masterext. I hope you can help me with a couple of clarifications.

For the Sunrise windows, I don't see any more specific model in the brochure or on the web site (http://www.sunrisewindows.com/windows/double-hung.aspx). Are the windows on this site the good Sunrise windows? Hmm, the vanguardwindows.com site does seem to talk about an additional feature called UltraCore. Does that make the Vanguard windows significantly better? Which is less expensive between the Vanguard and the Restorations?

Back the Marvin wood windows. What is the maintenance that is required? How often do you need to do it? I'd like to understand better.

Thanks!

[Windows on Washington]

Wingal,

There is not that much you can do to a clad wood window to extend its life and guarantee it beyond the 10 years that exists on the frame and sash.

The cladding can't really be caulked and the best thing you can do is to make sure as little water as possible is actually getting to the window via proper overhangs, guttering, and drip caps.

+1 to masterext that there is not much comparison in thermal and air tightness ratings between the two. The Restoration/Vanguard window pretty much crush the Ultimate in terms of those performance criteria.

[wingal]

Hmm, I had not realized that the warranty was so short. I did just look at the warranty on the Marvin site, and it has different time periods for different things, up to 20 years. However, to pay all that money for a shorter, confusing warranty does not seem to make sense.

So, I'm back to my Sunrise/Vanguard/Restorations questions.

Is the Vanguard (http://vanguardwindows.com/doublehung_windows.html) window really better than the standard Sunrise (http://www.sunrisewindows.com/windows/double-hung.aspx)? Where do Restorations fit in?

I did just get pricing for the Sunrise:

3 fixed picture windows, 1 casement window, 8 double hung windows, and 1 half round window.
Sunrise Windows. Brazilian Pecan interior/Earthtone exterior. Glass is; Ultra U 12 with argon gas. Quote totals include all labor, materials, options, and all clean up.
$10934

How does that sound?

This company does not intend to replace the brick molding. Is that OK? (The house is 20 years old. From what I've seen, the brick molding looks OK.)

My city requires a permit, but some contractors are saying not to bother or I should get it? What do you folks say is the best practice on this?

[Randy]

The Sunrise Vanguard adds insulating foam in the frame and fiberglass reinforcement in the sashes - both of which are worth having in Colorado. The Restorations adds more foam and the tilt latches are incorporated into the lock. These are upgrades that are much less significant.

Pricing seems reasonable, and not replacing the brick mold (if it isn't rotted) is fine.

Most cities require permits because they want money, and they want to factor it into property tax appraisals (more money). The one good thing about getting a permit is it typically requires the contractor to have a certain level of liability insurance. If you decide to go the no-permit route, I'd ask the contractor to provide proof of insurance anyway for your protection. Some states require workman's comp insurance and some only require liability insurance.

[wingal]

Thank you for that information, Randy. One guy keeps telling me that the Sunrise and Vanguard are identical.

So, one more in the mix. Another company likes Great Lakes windows, which I've never seen mentioned on these different forums.

For a similar configuration (slightly different mix of windows; some sliders), the Great Lakes Uniframe (http://www.uniframewindow.com/products/double_hung.html) with triple pane EconoMax glass would be $10,332 and the EcoSmart (has added insulation in the exterior of the frame and the composite reinforcement http://www.ecosmart-windows.com/features.html) with with triple pane EconoMax glass would be $10,957.

Anyone have any experience with these windows? Based on what Randy said, the additional insulation and reinforcement sounds like a good thing there here in Colorado.

[HomeSealed]

Great advice above. My thoughts:
-Plygem owns Great Lakes. The uniframe, ecosmart, plygem premium, etc are all basically the same window with minor differences and varying degrees of bells and whistles. Mid-grade IMO, I prefer the Sunrise.
-The Sunrise Vanguard/Restorations is in the top tier of vinyl window choices, very good performance.
-The Marvin Ultimate is an excellent wood window, although as mentioned above, wood windows will require maintenance (upkeep of interior finish), and are generally deficient in the areas of u factor and air infiltration compared to top vinyl options. The 20 yr warranty does not apply to the wood itself, that is only 10yrs, and will generally be the first thing to fail.
-On permits, while I'd agree with the above statement that they are generally just a cash grab, the fact is that they are necessary. They do force a minimum level of quality, and also require a contractor to be legit. If you have guys that are wanting to "skirt the rules", that could be a red flag IMO. They run the risk of back-charges and fines, and as the homeowner you could have some culpability for that as well.

[masterext]

Interesting how some states require permits. NJ does not require a permit for windows unless you are creating a brand new opening.
We give enough of our money away in property taxes hear in jersey, i think any other added fee's ( permits) would cause massive rioting..lol

[HomeSealed]

It varies here by municipality.

[wingal]

Thanks for your assessment, Homesealed, on the window brands.

On the Sunrise, some folks here ding them because the top and bottom windows of the double hung don't interlock to ensure a good seal. Does that matter?

Does Sunrise limit the Vanguard or Restorations dealers? My local folks here seem to only talk about the Sunrise windows and not Vanguard or Restorations. I'll ask again, but just wondered.

[Windows on Washington]

Restorations is a separate program but they don't seem to limit the Vanguard distribution.

[wingal]

From what I can see from the web sites, they have just one Vanguard and one Restorations dealer in the Denver metro area. If want one of those, I have to start all over with another company.

Is the Vanguard that much better than the "plain" Sunrise that I should look into the one and only dealer in the area? Admittedly, my energy for all this is waning, and my work is getting neglected.

[TheWindowNerd]

Yes you should look at a Vanguard or Restorations dealer.

theWindowNerd...