why are these windows fogged up?
why are these windows fogged up?
i was just at a friends house in novato, ca and he has some polybau (5yrs old) and some milgard (3 yrs old) vinyl windows..he said the install for the polybau was a nightmare so he switched to milgard...the question is...three of his 9 windows are fogged up...the are facing west and get a lot of sun...what is the cause of this?
fogg
Is the fog between the lites of the dual pane glass? If so, then those windows have seal failure and the manufacturer should be contacted for replacement of the glass under warranty.
If the fog is on the outside of the window unit (outside the home), then it may be a perfectly normal phenomena...which can be explained futher if that is the cause.
If the fog is on the inside of the windows, in the house, then your friend has a serious moisture issue in the house that needs to be addressed.
Based on your original question, I am guessing it is seal failure and the fog is between the lites...but let us know a bit more specifically please.
Oberon
If the fog is on the outside of the window unit (outside the home), then it may be a perfectly normal phenomena...which can be explained futher if that is the cause.
If the fog is on the inside of the windows, in the house, then your friend has a serious moisture issue in the house that needs to be addressed.
Based on your original question, I am guessing it is seal failure and the fog is between the lites...but let us know a bit more specifically please.
Oberon
definitely on the inside of the window
the haze is inside and you cant get it out...how can these windows have seal failure so soon? i was at the marin home show today and spoke to the pella guy dave...he said it was because of the hollow vinyl frames expansion and contraction which would eventually cause the seal to "pop"...the milgard guys said their windows don't do that? well i saw them myself..3 yrs old...then he mentioned the lifetime warranty..well who cares about a lifetime warranty if that is going to happen..what is the truth?
Pella guy Dave is a liar and the worst kind of salesman. Say anything to slam and lie about another product type to make a sale.
No wonder so many people who come to this board are so confused with this kind of idiotic mis-information being deseminated. Shame on you Pella guy Dave.
A slipped seal has nothing to do with the type of window it's installed in. It's the insulated glass pack that's bad, period. It could have been not enough heat when the units were made, contamination, or a host of other things that would make a batch of windows being made at the same time go bad. He should use his warranty. More than likely he will have no more problems for a very long time.
No wonder so many people who come to this board are so confused with this kind of idiotic mis-information being deseminated. Shame on you Pella guy Dave.
A slipped seal has nothing to do with the type of window it's installed in. It's the insulated glass pack that's bad, period. It could have been not enough heat when the units were made, contamination, or a host of other things that would make a batch of windows being made at the same time go bad. He should use his warranty. More than likely he will have no more problems for a very long time.
Wow. Your first post is to say someone is a liar. Nice.whistler wrote:Pella guy Dave is a liar and the worst kind of salesman. Say anything to slam and lie about another product type to make a sale.
No wonder so many people who come to this board are so confused with this kind of idiotic mis-information being deseminated. Shame on you Pella guy Dave.
A slipped seal has nothing to do with the type of window it's installed in. It's the insulated glass pack that's bad, period. It could have been not enough heat when the units were made, contamination, or a host of other things that would make a batch of windows being made at the same time go bad. He should use his warranty. More than likely he will have no more problems for a very long time.
what is this crap about making a sale?
i am about to find my way out of this forum but before i go? i will tell you all..fenestrations and window guys et al..i came here to get guidance about the biggest investment in my life..which is my home...and i am really regretting it...this forum or the so called experts in it are really slanted towards pushing inquiring minds to a certain brand of window..regardless of the simple science behind the questions...now i know for a fact if i leave my dogs plastic aka vinyl toys out in the yard all summer they will be cracked and shrunken..what makes a vinyl window any different?...and how can you blow off the fact that a three year old window from a supposedly quality manufaturer like milgard has seal failure after 3 years? seal failure? how about the cotton and glue weather strip? or when looking at the milgard website the air and infiltration rating of 49 MPH for residential windows? i am so disapointed in all of you so called experts..tomorrow i go to the local hardware store and buy a small vinyl window and leave it out in the sun all this summer...check back with me in the fall....
I really don't care if its a Pella or Marvin or Gorrell or Schuco or whatever salesman........heck we don't even know it was a salesman. I just don't enter a new group and first thing say someone is a liar without first hand contact with that person. You don't really know exactly what he said and in what context. For sure one of vinyl's weaknesses is its high thermal coefficient of themal expansion/contraction. Yes good design compensates for this weakness, and yes it should not be a factor in seal loss assuming a decent quality window and a good install. But did the owner of the vinyl windows paint the outer frames a dark color and are they exposed to heavy southern daylight? Did that warp the sash? Who knows. The buyer may have inquired what possibly could have gone wrong and someone might have been grasping at straws for an explanation rather than bashing.
Dear amore,
you said
"..the milgard guys said their windows don't do that? well i saw them myself..3 yrs old...then he mentioned the lifetime warranty..well who cares about a lifetime warranty if that is going to happen..what is the truth?"
exactly for that if the glass fails then the mnufacturer should and will replace it if under warranty.
usually this board is pretty good at helping but some times the guys get overzealous anf loose objectivity and forget that we are here to help others and not to sell.
e-z
you said
"..the milgard guys said their windows don't do that? well i saw them myself..3 yrs old...then he mentioned the lifetime warranty..well who cares about a lifetime warranty if that is going to happen..what is the truth?"
exactly for that if the glass fails then the mnufacturer should and will replace it if under warranty.
usually this board is pretty good at helping but some times the guys get overzealous anf loose objectivity and forget that we are here to help others and not to sell.
e-z
E-z
E-z Windows
E-z Windows
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researcher
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Hi all,
AS I had wood windows that were rotting, I did not want to take my chances with a wood window again, so I come here to this forum looking for the best vinly window and it is most likely Schuco. Schuco windows have good seals and will perform well when they are new if they installed properly. But I have my doughts on how well any vinly window will perform 6 or 10 years from now. Besides thermol expansion and contraction, vinly shrinks with sun expousure and wants to sag. There is a host of other things that a vinly window could not offer me that this home needs, but thay my not be issues for other homes.
AS I had wood windows that were rotting, I did not want to take my chances with a wood window again, so I come here to this forum looking for the best vinly window and it is most likely Schuco. Schuco windows have good seals and will perform well when they are new if they installed properly. But I have my doughts on how well any vinly window will perform 6 or 10 years from now. Besides thermol expansion and contraction, vinly shrinks with sun expousure and wants to sag. There is a host of other things that a vinly window could not offer me that this home needs, but thay my not be issues for other homes.
reply
Amore125 wrote:
"this forum or the so called experts in it are really slanted towards pushing inquiring minds to a certain brand of window..regardless of the simple science behind the questions...now i know for a fact if i leave my dogs plastic aka vinyl toys out in the yard all summer they will be cracked and shrunken..what makes a vinyl window any different?"
There is simple science behind it. You are comparing different types of vinyl. Your dog's toys and garden hose are made from platicised PVC allowing them to be flexible but also making them much more vulnerable to expansion, contraction and cracking. Vinyl windows are made from PVC-U (unplasticised) which is not softened by the addition of chemicals. PVC-U has a lower heat coefficient than wood and an expected half-life of over 300 years.
Your friend has seal failures... not frame failures. It could be due to a flawed I.G. production run or excessive heat transfer through the spacers. The metal spacers and glass are highly conductive and can and will dryout the small amount of sealant pressed between them. This is accelerated by exposure to extreme or consistant heat from the sun. You mentioned the same house has some Polybau vinyl windows that have not fogged up. They use a non-conductive silcon-foam spacer (SS) that will add considerable life to the seals. Sheer stress is the leading cause of seal failures, but it's due to the different expansion and contraction rates of the glass and spacer and their effect on sealants that have lost flexibility.
Enjoy your summer science experiment.
"this forum or the so called experts in it are really slanted towards pushing inquiring minds to a certain brand of window..regardless of the simple science behind the questions...now i know for a fact if i leave my dogs plastic aka vinyl toys out in the yard all summer they will be cracked and shrunken..what makes a vinyl window any different?"
There is simple science behind it. You are comparing different types of vinyl. Your dog's toys and garden hose are made from platicised PVC allowing them to be flexible but also making them much more vulnerable to expansion, contraction and cracking. Vinyl windows are made from PVC-U (unplasticised) which is not softened by the addition of chemicals. PVC-U has a lower heat coefficient than wood and an expected half-life of over 300 years.
Your friend has seal failures... not frame failures. It could be due to a flawed I.G. production run or excessive heat transfer through the spacers. The metal spacers and glass are highly conductive and can and will dryout the small amount of sealant pressed between them. This is accelerated by exposure to extreme or consistant heat from the sun. You mentioned the same house has some Polybau vinyl windows that have not fogged up. They use a non-conductive silcon-foam spacer (SS) that will add considerable life to the seals. Sheer stress is the leading cause of seal failures, but it's due to the different expansion and contraction rates of the glass and spacer and their effect on sealants that have lost flexibility.
Enjoy your summer science experiment.
reply
RC
I didn't intend to get off on a tangent in this thread, but I'll respond to your post.
Like wood, PVC-U is a good insulator. Its coefficient of heat conductivity is actually slightly lower than wood at 0.17 W/mC°, compared with 0.23 W/mC°. The equivalent coefficient for aluminium is approximately 210 W/mC°. The PPG Intercept spacer used by the failed window manufacturer is aluminum and a great conductor thus my opinion of why those units may have failed so soon.
You mentioned, "PVC-U is a good insulator. But its linear coefficient of thermal expansion/contraction is higher than wood by 6X.
E.G.:
PVU-U=.00006/degree C
Wood=.00001/degree C
You and I are mentioning coefficients that are measuring two different things. Since you responded to that part of my post, lets expand on it for a minute. It's true, "dry" wood has a much lower thermal expansion rate than PVC-U. This all changes when you add moisture (including humidity) to the equation. Wood is literally designed by Nature to absorb and carry moisture. It may be treated to resist it, but over time it always finds a way unless "pressure treated" to it's core which is not allowed in the manufacture of windows due to health related issues.
For example, a 4' tall PVC-U extruded window frame or sash installed at 70°F may expand or contract less than 1/8" (the thickness if a floppy disk) from 20°F to 120°F. It will expand and contract proportionately and consistantly and return to it's original size regardless of moisture.
However, a wood product will react quite differently when you add moisture (humidity) to the thermal expansion/contraction you had quoted. Wood that absorbs a moisture content of about 8% or more will expand when first heated and then gradually shrink to a volume smaller than it's original size. To make matters worse, the wood will not expand and contract evenly like PVC-U. The linear expansion coefficients of the cross-grain can be 5-10 times that of the parellel grain on each piece. This is why "every" piece of lumber has a bow or cup. It's also why the center panels on wood kitchen and bathroom cabinet doors are not fastened to their frames... but allowed to float loosely... and these are higher density hardwood and not even exposed to exterior elements.
If anyone really wants to mix and confuse material properties, try mixing wood fiber and PVC. It loses the decorating versatility and beauty of wood and the strength of fusion welding cababilities of PVC-U. Don't get me wrong, I am a big supporter of recycled products... for decks and such, not windows.
FenEx
I didn't intend to get off on a tangent in this thread, but I'll respond to your post.
Like wood, PVC-U is a good insulator. Its coefficient of heat conductivity is actually slightly lower than wood at 0.17 W/mC°, compared with 0.23 W/mC°. The equivalent coefficient for aluminium is approximately 210 W/mC°. The PPG Intercept spacer used by the failed window manufacturer is aluminum and a great conductor thus my opinion of why those units may have failed so soon.
You mentioned, "PVC-U is a good insulator. But its linear coefficient of thermal expansion/contraction is higher than wood by 6X.
E.G.:
PVU-U=.00006/degree C
Wood=.00001/degree C
You and I are mentioning coefficients that are measuring two different things. Since you responded to that part of my post, lets expand on it for a minute. It's true, "dry" wood has a much lower thermal expansion rate than PVC-U. This all changes when you add moisture (including humidity) to the equation. Wood is literally designed by Nature to absorb and carry moisture. It may be treated to resist it, but over time it always finds a way unless "pressure treated" to it's core which is not allowed in the manufacture of windows due to health related issues.
For example, a 4' tall PVC-U extruded window frame or sash installed at 70°F may expand or contract less than 1/8" (the thickness if a floppy disk) from 20°F to 120°F. It will expand and contract proportionately and consistantly and return to it's original size regardless of moisture.
However, a wood product will react quite differently when you add moisture (humidity) to the thermal expansion/contraction you had quoted. Wood that absorbs a moisture content of about 8% or more will expand when first heated and then gradually shrink to a volume smaller than it's original size. To make matters worse, the wood will not expand and contract evenly like PVC-U. The linear expansion coefficients of the cross-grain can be 5-10 times that of the parellel grain on each piece. This is why "every" piece of lumber has a bow or cup. It's also why the center panels on wood kitchen and bathroom cabinet doors are not fastened to their frames... but allowed to float loosely... and these are higher density hardwood and not even exposed to exterior elements.
If anyone really wants to mix and confuse material properties, try mixing wood fiber and PVC. It loses the decorating versatility and beauty of wood and the strength of fusion welding cababilities of PVC-U. Don't get me wrong, I am a big supporter of recycled products... for decks and such, not windows.
FenEx
this has been discussed before. if you dont sell vinyl then you bash it. it is human nature. luckily 99% of logical thinking consumers realize that whatever an ig unit is put into does not make or break its seal. this is a prime example for the consumer to stay away from any metal spacer. and dont be surprised that a window breaks its seal in 3 years. i see it almost everyday. windows from 1 year old to 6 years old. it is the homeowner shopped by price the first time and is paying for it now.