Schuco v. Sunrise Quotes & Questions

[edgerunner]

Hey there everyone. Totally new to this whole replacement window thing and I wanted to bounce a couple quotes off of folks here and get some guidance on which way we ought to go.

First of all I am located in the mid-Hudson valley of New York State near West Point. I am looking to replace the following:

Basement - 3 swing in chute type windows about 12x24ea
Garage - 1 DH about 32x48
Bedroom 1 - 3 DH about 36x48ea
Bedroom 2 - 2 DH about 36x48ea
Bedroom 3 - 2 DH about 36x48ea
Bedroom 4 - 2 DH about 36x48ea
Master bath - 1 DH about 28x36
LR - 2 DH about 32x60, 1 Picture about 88x60
DR - 3 DH about 36x48
Kitchen - 2 DH 32x60, 1 picture 88x60

All except the pictures are with Prarie grids.
The quotes I've received from 2 companies both include install, removal of old, insulation between new windows and old frames, as well as filling gaps in old frames as needed, haul away of old windows and debris, and all wrapping as needed. Only possible extra charges would be for replacing rotted sills if needed. Both seem to be reputable companies in business for 12+ years and I am following up on BBB and calling references.

One company uses Sunrise Windows - Double Glazed, Low E, Argon filled, frames filled with foam insulation, and coated with something that prevents streaks & spotting from water.
- $15,500

The other company uses Schuco windows - Triple Glazed, Low E, Krypton filled. [EDIT - These are the Corona 4000 series btw]
- $18,500

The Schuco dealer indicates that their frames are sealed airtight and therefore there is no need for foam insulation. Also, that they have the BEST air infiltration NFRC rating and are one of only 3 manufacturers with the Good Housekeeping seal of approval. Also did the Heat lamp Krypton gas dog & pony show, and it seems to this layman that it works. ???

Do these quotes seem reasonable? Which window is the better window (I am assuming the Schuco)? Assuming both install companies have good BBB feedback and happ customers - which way should I go? Are the Schuco worth the 3K more?

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Oh - I should add that the home is built in 1960, has poor insultation (getting that done in the ceilings at the same time), our current windows are single pane with storms and we use about $4k in oil each year.

Edgerunner

[Windows on Washington]

I wouldn't hedge my bet on the Good Housekeeping seal of approval...I think the Alside Excalibur was just awarded that.

You should compare apples to apples. See what the Sunrise quote would be with triple glazing. I am sure that the 3K difference would shrink or disappear completely.

Foam filling in frames is basically a selling tool and that is all. It does little to nothing to improve the performance of the window so I would take that detail out of the running as well.

That is a pretty good quote for Schuco as well so I think you will be happy no matter what.

[edgerunner]

Thanks so much for the feedback. I know nothing about Alside Excalibur - but I take it they are not highly thought of. I think we are leaning towards the Schuco. Any other manufacturers we should look into to get quotes from local dealers/installers?

Other thoughts and advice welcome.

Edgerunner

[RICK]

wow i would say that for triple payne krypton from them 23 windows with good coating in those sizes they missed something, you couls also try softlite they are up in the running with the best rating schoco is wrong on air infiltration softlite is better there.

hope this helps you

[edgerunner]

My bad - I reversed the two with respect to the Triple Glazing. It was the Sunrise that was Triple glazed and the Schuco's were double glazed.

How much of a practical difference does the Krypton gas make vs the Argon? If you were to take the Schuco's with Krypton double, vs the Sunrise Argon Triple - would there be a difference? Worth the $3000?

Also, I think we've decided to forgo the Prarie grids and stay with plain windows instead.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Edgerunner

[RICK]

they usally only put argon in double payne, i like triple feel it helps in pa in all 4 seasons and does a very good job in summer with the suns rays even with schoco double that is still good price from them

[insiderinfo]

Disinformation abounds in any subject. To correct some misunderstandings, Foam insulation within the window mainframe cavity does substantially increase the windows insulating value. The National Fenestration rating council (NFRC) recognizes internal frame insulation within their computer modeling simulations when assesing U-value performance. A window with mainframe internal foam insulation will test out better with foam than without foam in real world tests as well as simulation. In addition, Schuco uses steel sash reinforcement which is thermally conductive,even within the vinyl sash frame. Sunrise uses a less thermally conductive fiberglass composite reinforcement. These reinforcement materials are also factored into NFRC ratings. Between the two companies, Sunrise has the lowest (the lower the better) published NFRC rating for their double hung at .17. Schuco has no better than .20 for their double hung.Of course, these are apples to apples comparisons using triple pane Low-e with krypton.Also, check out the actual certified air infiltration rating for both,Schuco is far from the lowest or best performing in air infiltration testing
For further information on the above subjects I recommend a visit to the Efficient Windows Collabrative web site which is sponsored by the U.S.Dept. of Energy.( efficientwindows.org). They actually state that the most energy efficient vinyl window frame is one with internal foam insulation.
Also, I will echo what has also been previously said about final installation.
"The best window available is only as good as the final installation".

One other thing; The Good Houskeeping seal of approval is a purchased "Seal of Approval". The manufacturer pays Good Houskeeping a hefty sum for its use.It in no way indicates superiority. The seal will only be a backup "waranty" and indicates that if the original product fails and the homeowner does not get satisfaction from the manufacturer, Good Houskeeping will replace or refund the Material cost to the homeowner.Ask to see the "seal label" ,it indicates this in writting on the label.

[The-Window-Guy]

Nothing like a good old fashioned infomercial

[windowmann2000]

Your right Window-Guy, lets see whose window should we hawk today. Disinformation-missinformation, whatever. There are a number of windows on the NFRC tested with foam and without and show the same u-value. So the effect of foam filling is very minimal. I doubt Schuco's numbers would change if you foamed it but if you changed the amount of framing and gave it about 20% more glass the u would drop by quite a bit.
I'm not a proponent of triple glaze because between cost and savings, you can't live long enough to recoupe your investment. If you can afford triples and don't care about the cost than my position is reversed because of the comfort level. In as far as A/C cost a good double is almost equal to a triple.
Today I'm a Soft-lite proponent..........best numbers in the industry, and foamed filled, but I still like a Schuco better and I don't sell Schuco.
Good House Keeping, JD Powers and a crystal ball are all equals in my mind. That's my 2 cents worth.
I'm rambling, I'd better get going got to meet John Kerry for lunch.

[Window4U (IL)]

Y
Today I'm a Soft-lite proponent..........best numbers in the industry, and foamed filled, but I still like a Schuco better and I don't sell Schuco.

I sell Schuco, Softlite Elements and Sunrise so I guess I've got all the bases covered in this conversation. It makes it pretty hard to comment though since all my factory reps read the comments on this board. No matter what I say I'll get at least two phone calls.

[Windows on Washington]

Disinformation abounds in any subject. To correct some misunderstandings, Foam insulation within the window mainframe cavity does substantially increase the windows insulating value. The National Fenestration rating council (NFRC) recognizes internal frame insulation within their computer modeling simulations when assesing U-value performance. A window with mainframe internal foam insulation will test out better with foam than without foam in real world tests as well as simulation.

Cough.....cough

[insiderinfo]

I'm always amazed by "Industry people". who by their very reactions "infomercial-cough-" show not only a poor grasp of real technical knowlege but a very real bias to their commitment of discoverying the truth for the public consumer which this site purports to serve.

For the record, NATIONAL FENESTRATION RATING COUNCIL, EFFICIENT WINDOWS COLLABRATIVE, all confirm, with absoulute scientific fact through study and experimentation AND CONFIRMATION, that internal mainframe foam does indeed increase the insulating value of a window. And the use of a low thermally conductive composite also positively affects insulating vlaue by lower thermal conductivity.

Instead of "assuming" which we all know what that means. I would suggest that you check out the NFRC and learn what is really happening in the world of thermo-dynamics as it relates to Fenestration.

Soft-Lite is an example that I know well. Their original Imperial window, with hollow PVC and Aluminum reinforcement, triple Krypton and super spacer, HAD an NFRC U-value about the same as Schuco's at around .21. That same exact window, when the aluminum reinforcement was removed and substituted with composite, and the frames and remaining sash hollows filled with foam, tested out at .17 u-value. That's about a 20 PERCENT better U-VALUE. And a newer version from Soft-Lite is usually sold to the consumer for much less than the best SCHUCO has to offer.
So when someone says that "the cost won't support the lower U-value, or energy savings", I say that you need to look at the end cost to the consumer, which, from evidence in this forum, usually is lower than the "hollow,airtight" frame of the more expensive alternative.



I do not currently work for any retailer or manufacturer although I have been deeply involved in the design and construction of some very well known windows that we mention here on this site.

Homeowners deserve facts, not conjecture or assumptions. I encourage you to learn more about the facts by reviewing the NFRC web site and the Efficient Windows web site in-depth. Of course as you know, the NFRC is THE governing body which certifies windows for performance values across the entire country. EVERY window,from every major window manufacturer, will not leave their factory without an NFRC rating sticker applied to the glass.

I originally responded to the "Schuco versus Sunrise" because I noticed some statements that are incorrect from a techical point of view.I did not mention Soft-Lite because the consumer who originally asked the question, posed it as a choice between only the two. I can tell you that I do have a bias of choice, I'll be clear and up front about that. At this moment I consider the Soft-Lite Elements and the "NEW" Imperial to be the best replacement windows on the market, whether with Double Pane Low-e argon or triple pane krypton. Both in performance , as well as asthetics.

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, but we must be careful about making absolute statements of fact, that are actually only opinions of heart.

[Windows on Washington]

No one here is arguing whether or not foam in the frame actually increases insulating value, just whether or not the tag of substantially should be used as a descriptor when discussing foam filled frames and increased insulating value.

Simply isn't true.

Energy Design Update has tested this back to back comparison and found a negligible increase, if at all, in overall window performance. Where they did find some improvement was in condensation resistance. Perhaps it is a good option to consider in a bathroom or near a washroom or kitchen.

Foam filling, besides its relatively suspect insulating increase, does not come without other impacts. Some people have hinted that the foam in the frames may increase the toxic off gasing when exposed to a fire and poses a negative environemental effect from its production. Being the vinyl market, we need to avoid as many of these furthered implications as possible seeing as the fiberglass/wood/aluminum manufacturers are already beating this "green" drum.

I cannot account for the delta in U-value between the old Imperial and the new Imperial with foam and kevlar vs. aluminum. Two things that might be worth considering is that aluminum is perhaps the worst metal to use as a reinforcement because ability to transmit energy and did the sash extrusion of the Imperial have a hollow air chamber next to the metal reinforcement. I don't have a corner cut for my Imperial but I suspect that might have been the case and if so, a non-metal reinforcement would help the U-value substantially in that case.

I still think your foam arguement is BS though. I would like to see that back to back comparison in stages with the foam filling and the reinforcement bar separated out.

You seem to be defending the Imperial pretty heavily and still no information about this NOVA window...?

Please do inform us and educate us.

[insiderinfo]

The Efficeint Windows.org web address below is the specific page where you will find information specifically addressing foam filled vinyl frames (with or without reinforcement) as being "superior to hollow vinyl". Below the web address is underlined information I copied and pasted from the Efficient windows .org site listing the organizations who run the site and are responsible for it's content accuracy, one of which is the U.S. Department of Energy Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

I encourage you to visit the site to learn more about this subject

http://www.efficientwindows.org/frames_.cfm?id=7

Regents of the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus, College of Design, Center for Sustainable Building Research
All rights reserved.

This site was developed jointly by the Center for Sustainable Building Research, Alliance to Save Energy, and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.

As far as "outgasing and negative enviromental impact from production of the foam" is concerned, both Sunrise and Soft-Lite use an EPA approved foam which does not require any ventilation safeguards during it's processing because it has no toxic components.The materials flame spread component is "will not contribute to flame spread". In fact, the PVC frame surrounding the foam has a higher flame spread component than the foam. But neither materials will actually cause a flame to increase or spread. I've heard the "outgassing" scare tactic used before by those who don't use foam and it's just that , a scare tactic that has no basis of fact.

I hope this information helps you.

Nova Window, is this the company out of NOVA Scotia? Please confirm.

[Windows on Washington]

You encourage me. Well, in that case....?

No offense to you but I have read several of these studies and I am not sure who efficient windows.org sponsors outside of the federal government are.

Look, I sell plenty of windows with foam in them, however, it is not a substantial (as stated by you earlier) U-value improvement factor. I have seen at least one study saying the exact opposite of each study you have quoted. Some by potentially less bias testing organizations.

I am aware of that information about foam and its flame spread and burn time ratings but I can tell you that I have used other injection foams of similiar constituents in building structures and besides being especially flammable upon dispersment, they contain, in some cases, fairly carcinogenic components.

I am not using the foam arguement as a scare tactic, I am just advising that vinyl manufacturers would be well suited to look at more green alternatives if nothing else from an appearance standpoint.

Like I said, I sell some foam filled windows but I think your importance placed upon them and impact is overblown to say the least.

Do you have any input on my questions about the Imperial before and after data...? You did not answer any portion of that question.

The Nova window thing was from another post...disregard.