I said that I'd report on the Kolbe and Kolbe double hung at the Chicago show.
They claim a DP50 which is impressive. The aluminum is extruded on the sash and on the frame and they have a hidden jamb liner which has a wood veneer over the track. They don't have a standard Kynar finish but they offer a 30 year warrantee on the finish.
One minor point: There is no air space between the aluminum and the wood. An air space is better for insulation and fights moisture accumulation.
Pella unveiled their new double hung which also claims a DP50. They have built a window with more wood and have done away with the pressure jamb liner. You have to reach behind the sash and push at two points to tilt in the sash. It looks and operates far better than their old window.
One major point: They are still using roll-form aluminum on the sash. The sash and frame fade at different rates. There are several posts regarding roll form vs. extruded on this site if you want to check the archives. Many of the builders' grade windows have switched to extruded including Lincoln.
I sell Marvin. They have sold the Ultimate Double Hung for several years now. Five years ago it was obvious that it was the best window on the market. No one could match the DP40 rating, they were the first to eliminate the vinyl jamb liner and the first to make the Kynar finish standard. Every other window looked like junk in comparison. Now the competition is catching up.
Is the new Pella better? No. Is the Kolbe and Kolbe? Debatable. I don't know enough about K&K and have never seen them installed to make an educated comment. Marvin's customer service and quality control are still unsurpassed. Marvin is looking to bring their double hung up to the DP50 rating. From a sales standpoint I hope it happens soon.
Remodelers' Show - Chicago
Comment
Dean
I spent several days at the Marvin Plant in Warroad, MN about 4 years back. I was extremely impressed by the history, the fabrication and the family focus. In my opinion, they make the finest wood window on the market. One day during my visit, having lunch with Susan Marvin, I asked her if they were considering a low end product to compete with the "then" popular Pella Proline. She said, " No way. Our name is on the product... my name is on the product." I wholeheartedly respected that.
On the next note, Marvin must advance with the times... and I believe they will. The better part of the window market will probably continue to belong to the maintenence free vinyl industry for many years to come... but if Marvin continues their conviction and committment to quality as they have... they will continue to set the standard for quality in the necessary wood window market.
FenEx
I spent several days at the Marvin Plant in Warroad, MN about 4 years back. I was extremely impressed by the history, the fabrication and the family focus. In my opinion, they make the finest wood window on the market. One day during my visit, having lunch with Susan Marvin, I asked her if they were considering a low end product to compete with the "then" popular Pella Proline. She said, " No way. Our name is on the product... my name is on the product." I wholeheartedly respected that.
On the next note, Marvin must advance with the times... and I believe they will. The better part of the window market will probably continue to belong to the maintenence free vinyl industry for many years to come... but if Marvin continues their conviction and committment to quality as they have... they will continue to set the standard for quality in the necessary wood window market.
FenEx
Re: Comment
Fen Ex,
do you see fiberglass taking a big piece of the market?
Or how bout wood and vinyl composites? or do you think they still need to work out the bugs just as vinyl did before overtaking the market?
E-z
www.eazywindows.com
do you see fiberglass taking a big piece of the market?
Or how bout wood and vinyl composites? or do you think they still need to work out the bugs just as vinyl did before overtaking the market?
E-z
www.eazywindows.com
E-z
E-z Windows
E-z Windows
-
Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
I was at the show Friday myself. Here's some of my thoughts....
I didn't pay too much attention to the wood products as I am pretty familiar with what they have to offer, but I did take a close look at some products that are discussed frequently on the board that I was not as familiar with.
The Kolbe & Kolbe products were OK I guess from what I saw, and their cellular pvc window caught my eye on the cutaways they had set up. {only because it's a really odd looking material.}
I also got my first look at Milgard, and I'm sorry to say that I was not real impressed with the windows that were on display, nor the young kids knowledge who were representing their company. I couldn't get much technical info out of them either.
My favorite of the windows that I was not previously familiar with was the Comfortline windows. Their pultruded fiberglass windows have an option of over a thousand Sherwin Williams colors to choose from that can be factory applied inside and out. That's a real nice option for certain jobs for sure. They also have a new slimline window that is reminicent in looks to the old aluminum windows I put in back in the 70's, and it too is fiberglass. Their woodgrain windows were average at best in appearance, but all in all the brand is an interesting window.
As far as grids go, Timeline Vinyl has a nice way of simulating their grids to look like true divided lites. The system starts with a fake "metal spacer" that is installed as you would internal grids, but gives the window the look of true divided lites when the taped-on contoured grids are applied over these fake internal spacers on both sides of the glass. What the durability of these taped on grids is I don't know, but they did look pretty good. The window itself is very average.
There was a vinyl window booth for Park Avenue windows where their vinyl window "poster" hanging on the wall looked good but they didn't have a real window to show. After asking a couple questions, the rep's aggressive and condescending arrogance was enough to send me on my way in disgust. According to him, his window has 5 times better ratings than any window on the market, including Schuco, Gorell or Gilkey. Yeah, right!
I also stopped by the Sunrise window booth and after some discussion I showed one of their reps how the shoes on their sashes don't lock into place when tilted in, which causes the sash to flip up on one side and onto the floor on large windows. (I have posted previously on this problem)The sample window I looked at had this very problem, and the rep had the gall to tell me I was wrong and that it was impossible for this to happen. After showing him several demonstrations of the shoe slipping, I think he was starting to get the idea I knew what I was talking about, but never did admit there might be a problem. I do know one thing. If they don't fix this problem they are going to have some lawsuits on their hands eventually. Somebody is going to get hurt.
The closest thing I saw to new window technology for this year would be the new vivid-view screens Pella are now selling made by the Gore company. (makers of Gore-tex) They are pretty cool. You can hardly see them. I was thinking the screen fabric would be nice on my screenroom overlooking the lake, but after second thought I realized they wouldn't give me much privacy. They are TOO clear. I like the black vinyl screens because people can't see me so easy!
Many of the companies such as Jeld-Wen, Gorell, Certainteed, Republic and others were there as well but I saw nothing new to their lines.
All in all, I had a good time, but saw nothing to make me jump ship in my belief that the Schuco 4000 is still at the top of the heap as far as replacement windows go. The majority of windows are getting better though, which is good for the industry.
I didn't pay too much attention to the wood products as I am pretty familiar with what they have to offer, but I did take a close look at some products that are discussed frequently on the board that I was not as familiar with.
The Kolbe & Kolbe products were OK I guess from what I saw, and their cellular pvc window caught my eye on the cutaways they had set up. {only because it's a really odd looking material.}
I also got my first look at Milgard, and I'm sorry to say that I was not real impressed with the windows that were on display, nor the young kids knowledge who were representing their company. I couldn't get much technical info out of them either.
My favorite of the windows that I was not previously familiar with was the Comfortline windows. Their pultruded fiberglass windows have an option of over a thousand Sherwin Williams colors to choose from that can be factory applied inside and out. That's a real nice option for certain jobs for sure. They also have a new slimline window that is reminicent in looks to the old aluminum windows I put in back in the 70's, and it too is fiberglass. Their woodgrain windows were average at best in appearance, but all in all the brand is an interesting window.
As far as grids go, Timeline Vinyl has a nice way of simulating their grids to look like true divided lites. The system starts with a fake "metal spacer" that is installed as you would internal grids, but gives the window the look of true divided lites when the taped-on contoured grids are applied over these fake internal spacers on both sides of the glass. What the durability of these taped on grids is I don't know, but they did look pretty good. The window itself is very average.
There was a vinyl window booth for Park Avenue windows where their vinyl window "poster" hanging on the wall looked good but they didn't have a real window to show. After asking a couple questions, the rep's aggressive and condescending arrogance was enough to send me on my way in disgust. According to him, his window has 5 times better ratings than any window on the market, including Schuco, Gorell or Gilkey. Yeah, right!
I also stopped by the Sunrise window booth and after some discussion I showed one of their reps how the shoes on their sashes don't lock into place when tilted in, which causes the sash to flip up on one side and onto the floor on large windows. (I have posted previously on this problem)The sample window I looked at had this very problem, and the rep had the gall to tell me I was wrong and that it was impossible for this to happen. After showing him several demonstrations of the shoe slipping, I think he was starting to get the idea I knew what I was talking about, but never did admit there might be a problem. I do know one thing. If they don't fix this problem they are going to have some lawsuits on their hands eventually. Somebody is going to get hurt.
The closest thing I saw to new window technology for this year would be the new vivid-view screens Pella are now selling made by the Gore company. (makers of Gore-tex) They are pretty cool. You can hardly see them. I was thinking the screen fabric would be nice on my screenroom overlooking the lake, but after second thought I realized they wouldn't give me much privacy. They are TOO clear. I like the black vinyl screens because people can't see me so easy!
Many of the companies such as Jeld-Wen, Gorell, Certainteed, Republic and others were there as well but I saw nothing new to their lines.
All in all, I had a good time, but saw nothing to make me jump ship in my belief that the Schuco 4000 is still at the top of the heap as far as replacement windows go. The majority of windows are getting better though, which is good for the industry.
Chicago Show
I didn't pay much attention to the vinyl windows at the show and I won't start the argument about whether wood or vinyl is better.
I was interested to hear about the Super Spacer and asked several reps about it. No one had any knowledge though some had heard of it. None of the five or so companies I looked at used it. You're right, some of the companies had young kids who didn't know a window from a lawn mower.
Which leads my to my own rating: The models at Republic had great exteriors but wouldn't let me check out the interiors. They had excellent resistance to my BS factor, which was very high. I think they were too new on the market to fall for my outdated high-pressure sales tactics.
I was interested to hear about the Super Spacer and asked several reps about it. No one had any knowledge though some had heard of it. None of the five or so companies I looked at used it. You're right, some of the companies had young kids who didn't know a window from a lawn mower.
Which leads my to my own rating: The models at Republic had great exteriors but wouldn't let me check out the interiors. They had excellent resistance to my BS factor, which was very high. I think they were too new on the market to fall for my outdated high-pressure sales tactics.
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Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
Republic has a bunch of lines from cheapo to decent, though they all feature the same deal killer.....SPIRAL BALANCES!
Can you believe anybody still uses those horrible things? I see my profits dropping just thinking about using a window with those things again. It's amazing that a company that size wouldn't upgrade to a decent balance.
If any of you dealers decide to use that window, blow the dust off your old spiral balance tool and hire a full time serviceman.
Can you believe anybody still uses those horrible things? I see my profits dropping just thinking about using a window with those things again. It's amazing that a company that size wouldn't upgrade to a decent balance.
If any of you dealers decide to use that window, blow the dust off your old spiral balance tool and hire a full time serviceman.
Responses
EZ
This is just my opinion... but I see "quality" manufacturers using fiberglass sharing perhaps 20% of the market. I see the composites as less.
In the case of the fiberglass products, they are very strong, but are mostly used with mechanically fastened corner joints... not fusion welded. This is not only a structural concern (of mine), but also one of moisture and air infiltration. As global awareness evolves... I think the fact that they are thermosets and not recyclable will become a factor. Although I have read of science in progress to hopefully one day affordably reconstitute it, at the moment... they become ground up fill. As it stands, fiberglass insulation is being called the next asbestos and has already been outlawed in other countries... with the US to follow in years to come. I initially mentioned "quality" manufacturing with these products... this is due to the fact even with a product stronger than vinyl, they have lower DP ratings than the better vinyl windows.
This is just my opinion... but I see "quality" manufacturers using fiberglass sharing perhaps 20% of the market. I see the composites as less.
In the case of the fiberglass products, they are very strong, but are mostly used with mechanically fastened corner joints... not fusion welded. This is not only a structural concern (of mine), but also one of moisture and air infiltration. As global awareness evolves... I think the fact that they are thermosets and not recyclable will become a factor. Although I have read of science in progress to hopefully one day affordably reconstitute it, at the moment... they become ground up fill. As it stands, fiberglass insulation is being called the next asbestos and has already been outlawed in other countries... with the US to follow in years to come. I initially mentioned "quality" manufacturing with these products... this is due to the fact even with a product stronger than vinyl, they have lower DP ratings than the better vinyl windows.
Park Avenue Windows
W4U
I have to admit I got a chuckle out of the Park Ave. poster instead of the window at the homeshow. Your comments about the conversation with the rep was even more entertaining.
The Park Avenue Window is a fancy name for a Thermal Industries product. I had spoken to the Dealer Developement Manager in detail as he had contacted me a few months back. If I recall, they have U-0.24 and are about 30% more dealer cost than Schuco. I accepted an invitation to meet with him to see the product. He called about 2 weeks "after" we were supposed to meet to tell me he couldn't make it and wanted to reschedule!!! I am thinking this was because I told him about the products I Support.
Perhaps he will send me a poster next??
FenEx
I have to admit I got a chuckle out of the Park Ave. poster instead of the window at the homeshow. Your comments about the conversation with the rep was even more entertaining.
The Park Avenue Window is a fancy name for a Thermal Industries product. I had spoken to the Dealer Developement Manager in detail as he had contacted me a few months back. If I recall, they have U-0.24 and are about 30% more dealer cost than Schuco. I accepted an invitation to meet with him to see the product. He called about 2 weeks "after" we were supposed to meet to tell me he couldn't make it and wanted to reschedule!!! I am thinking this was because I told him about the products I Support.
Perhaps he will send me a poster next??
FenEx
Remodlers show exhibitor
As an exhibitor I am looking for feedback on our new booth. I am a Kolbe Gallery Franchisee and handle their Cellular PVC product,. I was at the show and worked the booth with K & K. Can anyone give me any feedback on the booth? It is a big step away from standard homeshow booths. (Personally I did like the Republic booth give awayers).
I was wondering if anyone noticed that I was referring to the girls in the Republic booth rather than the windows.
I liked the K & K booth design although it seemed like a larger space would have been better. I thought everything was packed together too closely which made moving around difficult. The windows weren't labelled very well either. They make several products and finding which was which while people were milling around didn't serve you well. I thought the theme was good though.
[/img]
I liked the K & K booth design although it seemed like a larger space would have been better. I thought everything was packed together too closely which made moving around difficult. The windows weren't labelled very well either. They make several products and finding which was which while people were milling around didn't serve you well. I thought the theme was good though.
[/img]
Confused about your Sunrise statement
I am confused by your Sunrise comments. I recently had Sunrise windows installed and was worried when I saw your previous post, especially since it was after they had been installed. However, I am unable to duplicate your concern. Each of my windows seem to operate fine. When I tilt ours in, they are locked in fine except when they are perfectly perpendictular with the frame which allows the sash to be removed. However nothing lifts up. Can you please explain. You mentioned larger windows, how large are you speaking of?
Window4U (IL) wrote:I was at the show Friday myself. Here's some of my thoughts....
I didn't pay too much attention to the wood products as I am pretty familiar with what they have to offer, but I did take a close look at some products that are discussed frequently on the board that I was not as familiar with.
The Kolbe & Kolbe products were OK I guess from what I saw, and their cellular pvc window caught my eye on the cutaways they had set up. {only because it's a really odd looking material.}
I also got my first look at Milgard, and I'm sorry to say that I was not real impressed with the windows that were on display, nor the young kids knowledge who were representing their company. I couldn't get much technical info out of them either.
My favorite of the windows that I was not previously familiar with was the Comfortline windows. Their pultruded fiberglass windows have an option of over a thousand Sherwin Williams colors to choose from that can be factory applied inside and out. That's a real nice option for certain jobs for sure. They also have a new slimline window that is reminicent in looks to the old aluminum windows I put in back in the 70's, and it too is fiberglass. Their woodgrain windows were average at best in appearance, but all in all the brand is an interesting window.
As far as grids go, Timeline Vinyl has a nice way of simulating their grids to look like true divided lites. The system starts with a fake "metal spacer" that is installed as you would internal grids, but gives the window the look of true divided lites when the taped-on contoured grids are applied over these fake internal spacers on both sides of the glass. What the durability of these taped on grids is I don't know, but they did look pretty good. The window itself is very average.
There was a vinyl window booth for Park Avenue windows where their vinyl window "poster" hanging on the wall looked good but they didn't have a real window to show. After asking a couple questions, the rep's aggressive and condescending arrogance was enough to send me on my way in disgust. According to him, his window has 5 times better ratings than any window on the market, including Schuco, Gorell or Gilkey. Yeah, right!
I also stopped by the Sunrise window booth and after some discussion I showed one of their reps how the shoes on their sashes don't lock into place when tilted in, which causes the sash to flip up on one side and onto the floor on large windows. (I have posted previously on this problem)The sample window I looked at had this very problem, and the rep had the gall to tell me I was wrong and that it was impossible for this to happen. After showing him several demonstrations of the shoe slipping, I think he was starting to get the idea I knew what I was talking about, but never did admit there might be a problem. I do know one thing. If they don't fix this problem they are going to have some lawsuits on their hands eventually. Somebody is going to get hurt.
The closest thing I saw to new window technology for this year would be the new vivid-view screens Pella are now selling made by the Gore company. (makers of Gore-tex) They are pretty cool. You can hardly see them. I was thinking the screen fabric would be nice on my screenroom overlooking the lake, but after second thought I realized they wouldn't give me much privacy. They are TOO clear. I like the black vinyl screens because people can't see me so easy!
Many of the companies such as Jeld-Wen, Gorell, Certainteed, Republic and others were there as well but I saw nothing new to their lines.
All in all, I had a good time, but saw nothing to make me jump ship in my belief that the Schuco 4000 is still at the top of the heap as far as replacement windows go. The majority of windows are getting better though, which is good for the industry.
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Windowman PA
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:06 am
Fiberglass Windows
I worked for a fiberglass window company and for three years i spent 75% of my time on service! look before you buy.
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Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
Re: Confused about your Sunrise statement
[quote="dexley74"]I am confused by your Sunrise comments. I recently had Sunrise windows installed and was worried when I saw your previous post, especially since it was after they had been installed. However, I am unable to duplicate your concern. Each of my windows seem to operate fine. When I tilt ours in, they are locked in fine except when they are perfectly perpendictular with the frame which allows the sash to be removed. However nothing lifts up. Can you please explain. You mentioned larger windows, how large are you speaking of?
Dexley,
The windows I have had problems with were all real large. The one order that received the most damage from the sashes flying to the floor were all about 40" X 78" tall. The other order I only had 2 out of 8 have this happen and they were about 36 x 72.
I do not wish to worry you. I am sure not every window they make has slipping shoes. I just am reporting my personal experience on some large windows. When I have 6 out of 6 sashes on an order end up flying onto the floor, and that defect costs me the order on the other 80 windows in my customers building, then I think it is an issue I must make people and the company aware of.
A liitle expalnation of how these work may help explain my concerns. The counterbalance is connected to a "shoe" which has slots for the sash pins to set into. This "shoe" has an inner part that is oblong. When you tilt the sash in, this oblong inner part spreads the shoe apart which wedges the entire mechanism into place. This makes cleaning the window usually a safe proposition, as the counterbalances cannot pull one side of the sash up causing it to come out of the frame. What I am saying about the Sunrise windows I have had problems with is that the "wedging" is not sufficient enough to keep the shoes locked into place on the larger windows with the stronger counterbalances.
If you have not had these problems, I am sure you are in the majority, and I do wish you well with your windows. Except for this problem, I have had good luck with using their windows, especially with their casements, awnings, and patio doors. They are very attractive.
Dexley,
The windows I have had problems with were all real large. The one order that received the most damage from the sashes flying to the floor were all about 40" X 78" tall. The other order I only had 2 out of 8 have this happen and they were about 36 x 72.
I do not wish to worry you. I am sure not every window they make has slipping shoes. I just am reporting my personal experience on some large windows. When I have 6 out of 6 sashes on an order end up flying onto the floor, and that defect costs me the order on the other 80 windows in my customers building, then I think it is an issue I must make people and the company aware of.
A liitle expalnation of how these work may help explain my concerns. The counterbalance is connected to a "shoe" which has slots for the sash pins to set into. This "shoe" has an inner part that is oblong. When you tilt the sash in, this oblong inner part spreads the shoe apart which wedges the entire mechanism into place. This makes cleaning the window usually a safe proposition, as the counterbalances cannot pull one side of the sash up causing it to come out of the frame. What I am saying about the Sunrise windows I have had problems with is that the "wedging" is not sufficient enough to keep the shoes locked into place on the larger windows with the stronger counterbalances.
If you have not had these problems, I am sure you are in the majority, and I do wish you well with your windows. Except for this problem, I have had good luck with using their windows, especially with their casements, awnings, and patio doors. They are very attractive.
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mybaby2028
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:23 am
Renewal by Andersen?
I was just wondering if Renewal by Andersen had a "booth" at this show and if so what the impressions were? Still trying to learn more about them. . .Experts?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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ReadeSmith
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:47 pm
Jeld-Wen Windows????
I'm considering replacing some windows with Jeld-Wen. Does anybody have any insights? I'm looking at their top of the line windows and realize they are not Marvin but are they a good/better then average window that should last if maintenance is done?
Thanks
Thanks