Have never used a message board (whatever) before, but here it goes. We are currently in a dispute with the company that installed our new replacement windows. We contracted for Low E Argon Filled windows. Our picture window is labeled (the NFRC certification) as being argon filled. The other 6 double hung windows are not labeled as being gas filled. The dealer was clearly surprised at the labeling when we brought it to his attention and had no explanation. In turning it over to the mfr., their position is that "a computer glitch inadvertently left out the "argon filled" wording on our labels, but that they are indeed gas filled. Our position is that that's a convenient excuse for windows that very likely can be only air filled, since the manufacturer does indeed make our particular window in both gas filled and non gas filled. So my question is two-fold: Any thoughts on how to further approach this, and is there a definitive way (a test of some sort) to identify or prove a window is argon filled?
Thanks much.
argon filled windows
This brings up an interesting discussion. I heard from a shuco dealer that a tool exists (a very expensive tool) that is mobile and can test a window to see how much of a gas is in it.
The gist of this dealer's point was that windows will leak out the argon over a period of many years, and eventually not have enough to be effective anymore (I think the number was that after less than 80% full its not effective anymore). I know most of what I know about windows from this forum and from a few websites and personal experience, so I have no way to know whether this is a good figure and whether this tool really exists.
The gist of this dealer's point was that windows will leak out the argon over a period of many years, and eventually not have enough to be effective anymore (I think the number was that after less than 80% full its not effective anymore). I know most of what I know about windows from this forum and from a few websites and personal experience, so I have no way to know whether this is a good figure and whether this tool really exists.
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Window4U (IL)
- Posts: 1548
- Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:46 am
- Location: Sales and Installation in Chicagoland and Central Illinois
It's called a GasGlass tester. It can be yours for only $10,000. Whether there are any companies renting their services to do such tests for homeowners since this device's inception, I do not know. The US distributor of this device is FDR Design out of Buffalo, Minnesota. http://www.fdrdesign.com Maybe they would know someone who has one of these devices in your area that would test them for you for a modest fee. Better yet, tell the factory rep you are going to have them GasGlass tested and look to see if there are any beads of sweat suddenly forming on the guys forehead.
FDR does make the unit. It is about the size of a palm pilot. NOt very many people have them. I know laywers have been trying to get there hands on them here in the west to file class action law suits in subdivisions.
IF the NFRC label does not show it, make them replace the glass. IT is cheaper for them to do that than to send someone out with a tester and go through the hassle of proving they only half messed up. If you are getting and energy rebate, the NFRC rating is important and you may need to have a copy of it to claim your rebate.
I have been in manufacturing and if it says it does not have argon on the label, chances are, it did not get argon. If you paid for it, they need to have some ability, other than their word, that they filled it, (say and NFRC label!!!!)
Cynthia, if they do not help you, post the name of the company, and manufacturer here and let them know you are inquiring about it and have received feed back. I worked in a warranty department for one of the big boys and they would rather fix the problem then let their name get put out there like this. An IG only costs a large company 15-25 dollars for an IG the size of double hung. Cheap. Don;t let them off the hook for their mistake.
IF the NFRC label does not show it, make them replace the glass. IT is cheaper for them to do that than to send someone out with a tester and go through the hassle of proving they only half messed up. If you are getting and energy rebate, the NFRC rating is important and you may need to have a copy of it to claim your rebate.
I have been in manufacturing and if it says it does not have argon on the label, chances are, it did not get argon. If you paid for it, they need to have some ability, other than their word, that they filled it, (say and NFRC label!!!!)
Cynthia, if they do not help you, post the name of the company, and manufacturer here and let them know you are inquiring about it and have received feed back. I worked in a warranty department for one of the big boys and they would rather fix the problem then let their name get put out there like this. An IG only costs a large company 15-25 dollars for an IG the size of double hung. Cheap. Don;t let them off the hook for their mistake.
reply
I was the culprit that introduced that article to the sites awhile back. The GasGlass tester is made by Sparklike. FDR Designs is the North American distributor, not the manufacturer. There are only about 70 units being used in the states as of now, primarily by manufacturers. They are in the process of having their testing become an ASTM Standard, but it may still take another 6 months or so to achieve that. When that happens, it should be officially and legally accepted in most cases.
In the meantime, I have contacted a source at the NFRC for suggested options. Let the manufacturer know that you have the resources necessary to ensure your confidence. Improper NFRC or EnergyStar labeling constitutes fraud. You very well might be able to resolve this before it starts. I'll let you know what I find out. Keep in mind that the NFRC is a private organization, but EnergyStar has government ties.
FenEx
In the meantime, I have contacted a source at the NFRC for suggested options. Let the manufacturer know that you have the resources necessary to ensure your confidence. Improper NFRC or EnergyStar labeling constitutes fraud. You very well might be able to resolve this before it starts. I'll let you know what I find out. Keep in mind that the NFRC is a private organization, but EnergyStar has government ties.
FenEx
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cynthia smyrniotis
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:02 pm
argon filled windows
To everyone who posted replies: Wow, what a surprise! I hadn't visited the site for a couple of days. I may have misunderstood the 'reply notification' feature.
Thank you, thank you, for all your good information and suggestions re. gas testing equipment and the NFRC labeling. FenEx, I had tried contacting the Council via email but heard nothing back, so thanks for doing that. Our feeling is the same as yours, "if it ain't in the label, it ain't there!" I failed to mention earlier that the mfr. sent us in the mail new, "correct" labels for our windows (after the issue was brought to their attention) so that we would be "assured" that we had the correct product. Changing the labeling on a product after it's been sold??? I don't think the Council would be happy to hear that a company is doing that.
In the meantime, our window/siding dealer is closed for the next week and a half for an 'industry conference.' I'll be back in touch with all of you when we have our next contact with them.
Thank you, thank you, for all your good information and suggestions re. gas testing equipment and the NFRC labeling. FenEx, I had tried contacting the Council via email but heard nothing back, so thanks for doing that. Our feeling is the same as yours, "if it ain't in the label, it ain't there!" I failed to mention earlier that the mfr. sent us in the mail new, "correct" labels for our windows (after the issue was brought to their attention) so that we would be "assured" that we had the correct product. Changing the labeling on a product after it's been sold??? I don't think the Council would be happy to hear that a company is doing that.
In the meantime, our window/siding dealer is closed for the next week and a half for an 'industry conference.' I'll be back in touch with all of you when we have our next contact with them.
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cynthia smyrniotis
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:02 pm
argon filled windows
Hi again. Just wanted to let you know that our window dilemma has been resolved to our satisfaction. The dealer was out to our house yesterday to test our windows with some kind of infra red light, and brought a non argon-filled window along with him. There was a noticeable difference that my husband was able to feel between the plain air-filled window and the windows that were installed, so it would seem that we did, in fact, get the correct window, and it was, unfortunately, a labeling mistake. Thanks again to each of you who helped us out on this. What a terrific site.
If your dealer used an infared light he only proved that there is soft coat low-e glass in the window. The infared light will not show if there is argon in the window. To my knowledge there is only one tool that detects argon in a window and those tools cost around $10,000 so not many people have access to them.
If he used a heat lamp and a btu meter you would tell a difference between a coating of low-e, and a coating of low-e with argon, quite a considerable difference. If youre still doubting have him bring a heat lamp, btu meter, and a sash with just insulated glass. Have him test the insulated glass he brought, then you're window. You should be able to tell a difference of a few hundred btu's, between the two.